Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby simhanada » Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:24 am

gregkavarnos wrote:Essentially you are listening to a replay anyway. The teaching is recorded, transformed to binary and then transmitted. So drawing the line at the replay of something said a second, minute, hour, day, week, month, year ago seems kind of arbitrary really doesn't it?

If the intention of the person being recorded is to transmit something, and the intention of the person watching it is to receive something, then where is the problem?

Is there some sort of expiry/use by date on intention? Who defines this date?


I understand what your saying but I think Rinpoche's intention, how he perceives the process to take place is important. To me it seems that the intention is there to transmit the teachings then, at that moment to whoever is listening at that time through the provided mediums, some of those mediums have minor delays. The replays do not seem to be one of the intended mediums.

Taking your example to the extreme, when Rinpoche teaches to large groups and they use a PA system (where sound is converted into digital information, transmitted to speakers and then the sound reaches the recipients ear, milliseconds later) it is the same as listening to a recording years later. Since that doesn't make sense there must be some other reason, beyond the second, minute, hour, week, month, year delay as to why Rinpoche doesn't want recordings to be considered lung or transmission.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:08 am

simhanada wrote:Since that doesn't make sense there must be some other reason, beyond the second, minute, hour, week, month, year delay as to why Rinpoche doesn't want recordings to be considered lung or transmission.
Yup, I agree. And I am just wondering: "What is the reason?"
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One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby heart » Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:03 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
simhanada wrote:Since that doesn't make sense there must be some other reason, beyond the second, minute, hour, week, month, year delay as to why Rinpoche doesn't want recordings to be considered lung or transmission.
Yup, I agree. And I am just wondering: "What is the reason?"


My understanding is that if Rinpoche isn't in the transmitting mood, there is no transmission. So if there is a slight delay it doesn't matter as long as Rinpoche is actually transmitting this particular teaching at this time and is including in his transmission everyone receiving the webcast.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Jikan » Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:20 pm

I first got involved in Dzogchen Community when direct introduction was still given globally by a DVD system. Everyone turned on their TVs, plugged in the video, hit play at precisely the same time, and thus direct introduction was given. It was explained to me that it has everything to do with timing and intention: since everyone is involved and cooperating at the same time, with the intention to collaborate, then there are no problems.

This principle surely carries over into this discussion about the timing or mistiming or whatever of the webcasts.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby kirtu » Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:58 pm

Jikan wrote:It was explained to me that it has everything to do with timing and intention: since everyone is involved and cooperating at the same time, with the intention to collaborate, then there are no problems.


heart wrote:My understanding is that if Rinpoche isn't in the transmitting mood, there is no transmission.


I was going to mention the intention aspect but I'm not a member of the Dzogchen Community. The intention to transmit is the vital key and the difference between actual transmission and a recording. Transmission is a dependent arising created by the intention of the Vajra Master and the receptivity of the student. As Vasubandhu stated, the realms of existence come into being through intention.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:05 pm

DVD transmissions??? Does it work with cassetes and vinyl too? :tongue: What about blue ray?
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Jikan » Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:15 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:DVD transmissions??? Does it work with cassetes and vinyl too? :tongue: What about blue ray?


I think it was VHS before DVD (the video was just a prop as near as I can tell to get everyone practicing simultaneously and with the proper intention). The webcast sent the DVD to the end of the bench.

I prefer vinyl myself.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:25 pm

kirtu wrote:I was going to mention the intention aspect but I'm not a member of the Dzogchen Community. The intention to transmit is the vital key and the difference between actual transmission and a recording. Transmission is a dependent arising created by the intention of the Vajra Master and the receptivity of the student. As Vasubandhu stated, the realms of existence come into being through intention.

Kirt
This though still does not answer my question about intention: does intention have a use by/expiry date?

I can have the intention to build a safe road for people to drive on (for example) and so I build it. Does my intention end when the building ends? When the building starts? When people are using the safe road? ...?

By the same token I may have the intention to produce a video that allows for transmission/pointing out. When does my intention end?

If Dzogchen is beyond space and time, then how can its transmission be bound by space and time? Why is its transmission dependent on space and time?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby simhanada » Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:39 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:By the same token I may have the intention to produce a video that allows for transmission/pointing out. When does my intention end?


The video provides the structure, not the transmission.

gregkavarnos wrote:If Dzogchen is beyond space and time, then how can its transmission be bound by space and time? Why is its transmission dependent on space and time?


The state is beyond space and time, the methods are not?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Lhasa » Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:19 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
kirtu wrote:I was going to mention the intention aspect but I'm not a member of the Dzogchen Community. The intention to transmit is the vital key and the difference between actual transmission and a recording. Transmission is a dependent arising created by the intention of the Vajra Master and the receptivity of the student. As Vasubandhu stated, the realms of existence come into being through intention.

Kirt
This though still does not answer my question about intention: does intention have a use by/expiry date?

I can have the intention to build a safe road for people to drive on (for example) and so I build it. Does my intention end when the building ends? When the building starts? When people are using the safe road? ...?

By the same token I may have the intention to produce a video that allows for transmission/pointing out. When does my intention end?

If Dzogchen is beyond space and time, then how can its transmission be bound by space and time? Why is its transmission dependent on space and time?


Exactly!! I think there is a question of 'capacity' here. If you have the capacity to tune in, you get it, no matter when it was transmitted. This was my direct experience when I first viewed Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche''s videos. It may be that if you have a strong karmic link with a Teacher, it only takes contact of any kind to renew and activate that connection.
This is something I have noticed when ChNN does DI or empowerments. There is a very strong protective, sheltering energy coming from him. A ' We're not in Kansas anymore.' kind of energy. He is deliberately and consciously creating a 'safe place' for everyone participating. Maybe this is a Vajra Tent? Maybe that is why he wants the live webcast transmission....so Westerners with heads full of cotton and little good sense, don't tune into his Mindstream in a way that will fry their circuits and crash their hard drive.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby MalaBeads » Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:34 pm

Lhasa wrote: I think there is a question of 'capacity' here. If you have the capacity to tune in, you get it, no matter when it was transmitted. This was my direct experience when I first viewed Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche''s videos. It may be that if you have a strong karmic link with a Teacher, it only takes contact of any kind to renew and activate that connection.
This is something I have noticed when ChNN does DI or empowerments. There is a very strong protective, sheltering energy coming from him. A ' We're not in Kansas anymore.' kind of energy. He is deliberately and consciously creating a 'safe place' for everyone participating. Maybe this is a Vajra Tent? Maybe that is why he wants the live webcast transmission....so Westerners with heads full of cotton and little good sense, don't tune into his Mindstream in a way that will fry their circuits and crash their hard drive.


Makes a lot of sense to me, Lhasa.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:25 pm

simhanada wrote:The video provides the structure, not the transmission.
I don't disagree, but it does not "disprove" my point.
The state is beyond space and time, the methods are not?
If you strap a couple of canoe paddles to your arms and flap real hard and fast you are not going to fly are you? So how can methods based in time and space lead to a state beyond time and space?

Oh, just want to say: this is not a personal issue with you (or anybody else) simhananda, it's not that I am trying to prove you (or anybody else) wrong. I'm just trying to understand where you (all) are coming from.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:39 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Oh, just want to say: this is not a personal issue with you (or anybody else) simhananda, it's not that I am trying to prove you (or anybody else) wrong. I'm just trying to understand where you (all) are coming from.


If you really like to understand, Greg, maybe you should listen directly to what ChNN Rinpoche says about all this. Because he explains everything in details, so his students have no doubt.
The key-point is intention and synchronicity. What is so difficult in understanding this?


gregkavarnos wrote:If Dzogchen is beyond space and time, then how can its transmission be bound by space and time? Why is its transmission dependent on space and time?


The state of Dzogchen is beyond all limitations, but we are not in that state. If we were, then we'd need no transmission. That's why, while we are still bound by all limitations, we are trying first of all to discover that state, and then remain in it without interruption 24/7 through the teachings and practices.
As ChNNR says often: "working with circumstances". :smile:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby heart » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:42 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:If you strap a couple of canoe paddles to your arms and flap real hard and fast you are not going to fly are you? So how can methods based in time and space lead to a state beyond time and space?


Most Buddhist methods are like that, using the mind to beyond mind. It is whole point of meditation.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:24 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:This though still does not answer my question about intention: does intention have a use by/expiry date?

I can have the intention to build a safe road for people to drive on (for example) and so I build it. Does my intention end when the building ends? When the building starts? When people are using the safe road? ...?

Vajra brother Greg, your example really seems to be analogous to the situation of transmission, but it's not exactly. Why? Because a road is a tangible, physical thing that persists long after your intention to build it dissolves back into emptiness and completely different thoughts have taken that intention's place. Transmission, on the other hand, is intangible and consists of the fleeting coordination of master and student. I'll speak more on that below, though.

gregkavarnos wrote: By the same token I may have the intention to produce a video that allows for transmission/pointing out. When does my intention end?

If Dzogchen is beyond space and time, then how can its transmission be bound by space and time? Why is its transmission dependent on space and time?


The previous poster did actually answer your question when he/she mentioned that the transmission is not being received via the video or the internet. Therefore, even if the video lasts for a million years, it never has and never will "contain" the transmission. The transmission consists of the master being in his knowledge of the natural state and the student doing guru yoga with the master and, to some degree, happening to glimpse his or her own natural state at that time. When it comes to direct introduction, the video is just for coordinating the timing of this.

Still, you ask, how can the intention to transmit be limited within time if the Dzogchen state is beyond space and time? Well I've heard Rinpoche say many times that the transmission is not bound by space but it is bound by time. Why? Well, he often says "who knows, maybe you are out there somewhere and attempting to be in the same state with me but maybe I am over here on the toilet, so transmission does not happen" which seems to be him implying that he's not in his knowledge of the natural state 24/7, so you gotta coordinate with him. He has to be in that knowledge at the moment you intend to do guru yoga with him and have your nature become evident to you. The Dzogchen state is beyond space and time but one's knowledge of it is kind of like the sun periodically being seen when the clouds part and then covered up again until one is fully realized and the clouds are permanently removed.

Now, maybe ChNN is just being humble and although he is in the natural state 24/7, he's trying to set an example of how to diligently practice, like Padmasambhava did, rather than be an example of someone who's already finished the path and who we can't relate to. Or maybe he's being honest and he's not always in the natural state. Who but him knows? All I know is he says what his capabilities are and what I need to do to participate in light of his capabilities, and since he's proved to me he is trustworthy as a teacher, I'm OK with participating according to his instructions and it's working out great.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby T. Chokyi » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:27 pm

This is a really good question:

gregkavarnos wrote:"If Dzogchen is beyond space and time, then how can its transmission be bound by space and time? Why is its transmission dependent on space and If Dzogchen is beyond space and time, then how can its transmission be bound by space and time? Why is its transmission dependent on space and time?


The transmission isn't bound by space or time, but we are.

If we weren't bound by space or time in our condition, and had the ability in this moment to go beyond all limitation like Garab Dorje who had the ability to receive the transmission directly from Vajrasattva than we could also have the transmission directly from Vajrasattva himself, we could right now have no "appointment" to meet with any master for DI at say 10 am and try to be present in the state of contemplation when Rinpoche is in that state.

Rinpoche often says we have experiences in our nature "concretely" so going for DI or the teachings, singing Song of Vajra, that way we can experience that energy (Tsal) and know for ourselves (be certain) that there was and is this transmission, by having confidence that Rinpoche is in that state and now we are relaxing and hearing and seeing him (if you are a member) sounding White AH etc... this gives us a way to enter with him into that state, this is water poured into water, like the opening of a door that would remain shut for so many people... however, once again, it would be unnecessary to do this to receive DI from our side if we had the ability to go directly within that transmission from Sambhogakaya. http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Sambhogakaya

CHNNR has said many times, we are living in "circumstance" and we are experiencing the human condition, generally for human beings there are considerable obstacles, great or small and that varies, we understand this depends on our karmic condition, we all have our own karma, we are relatively faced with our situation everyday, could be our health for instance, but CHNNR lets us know these are relative conditions and relative conditions shouldn't be allowed to just totally control us, we shouldn't be passive. People don't have to have any fantasy about whether they heard transmission or not, when CHNNR says he is transmitting then he is, this also gives us an opportunity to get into our real nature going beyond mind (sems) to Nature of mind (Semnyi)
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby muni » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:26 am

I can only tell about own delusions while in open devotion the compassionate blessings are recieved, then nature reveals itself is said.
If mind is disturbed, whether there are words at 'the right time or later', it makes no difference, at least not for me, I remain as deluded as can be. Then no transmission.
Therefore devotion/faith, while analysing is like investigating in the material of the liberation of material apprehended inventions.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:42 pm

Dronma wrote:The key-point is intention and synchronicity. What is so difficult in understanding this?
Because I have not received a convincing answer in regards to what defines the duration of "intention" yet AND this concept of synchronicity with something that is not based in time and space just doesn't sit right for me.
The state of Dzogchen is beyond all limitations, but we are not in that state.
Everything said in the Kungyed Gyalpo disagrees fundamentally with your statement.
It is whole point of meditation.
'cept, of course, that the natural state is not beyond (seperate to) mind and cannot be "gained" through "method".
Vajra brother Greg, your example really seems to be analogous to the situation of transmission, but it's not exactly. Why? Because a road is a tangible, physical thing that persists long after your intention to build it dissolves back into emptiness and completely different thoughts have taken that intention's place.
A dvd of a transmission is (apparently) a tangible physical thing. At the same time Dzogchen (and Buddhist) theory will say there is no "thing" and it is not "tangible" anyway.
Transmission, on the other hand, is intangible and consists of the fleeting coordination of master and student.
Back to square one: if it is intagible then it is not limited by time and space and thus... Anyway, where else does transmission occur if not in the mind? Is the mind bound by time and space? If not, (which it quite obviously is not), then that seems to render the medium of transmission irrelevant.
Why? Well, he often says "who knows, maybe you are out there somewhere and attempting to be in the same state with me but maybe I am over here on the toilet, so transmission does not happen"
The nature of mind is present under all circumstances. Even on the toilet. The nature of mind is the toilet, the crap coming out of your rectum, the water splashing onto your butt, etc... (sorry for the scatlogical references, but I was responding to the specific point).
The transmission isn't bound by space or time, but we are.
Actually we are not, we may think we are but...

As for the sambhogakaya, well, it is actually much, much closer than you think! ;)
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby CrawfordHollow » Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:15 pm

The Kungyed Gyalpo is the main tantra of semde. It is my understanding that semde focuses on the non-duality of mind and appearances. The upadesha series introduces this distinction between dualitstic mind (sem) and rigpa. So the semde seires says that everthing is always in the sphere of the non-dual natural state, and the upadesha series makes this distintion between the samsaric state of mind and rigpa. So it seems that there are some contradictions even within the dzogchen teachings about whether or not we are always within the natural state.

I don't think it is the case that the natural state is something that can be gained, but it is something that can be obscured. I know that this does not answer your question in the least, I just wanted to point out that there is this distinction between a deluded state of mind and a mind resting in rigpa. I was just reading about this in Approaching the Great Perfection, I can get some passages later if you are interested.

I am not so sure that there is a clear cut answer to the question about how, when, or why the transmission happens. I do have some more thoughts about this but my ride just got here, so I will check back in later today.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:03 pm

CrawfordHollow wrote:I don't think it is the case that the natural state is something that can be gained, but it is something that can be obscured.
This is another point, a point of contradiction that existed in the discussion with the "True Self" mob: How can something that is all pervasive, infinite, unbound, etc... be obscured by something that is temporary, compounded, limited, etc...
I know that this does not answer your question in the least...
I am not really looking for answers, just, maybe, a better way to frame a question, or some interesting and relevant discussion, or just to be a pain in the rear end...? :tongue:
I am not so sure that there is a clear cut answer to the question about how, when, or why the transmission happens.
There probably isn't one (ChNN doesn't seem to think there is) but all points of view are welcome.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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