Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby dzogchungpa » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:47 pm

Dronma wrote:However, it is different what you are just saying than your previous statement: "It is perfectly legal".
Because it is not! ;)
As we can read in all materials which are related with the teachings and they are distributed inside DC:
"All rights of translation, reproduction and partial or total use in any form whatsoever are reserved in all countries" by Shang Shung Institute, of course. [/color]

The question is, what law is broken if one records a webcast?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:49 pm

Dronma wrote:As we can read in all materials which are related with the teachings and they are distributed inside DC:
"All rights of translation, reproduction and partial or total use in any form whatsoever are reserved in all countries" by Shang Shung Institute, of course.
This is in regard to publications: books, pamphlets, cd, dvd. Webcasts are technically not publications.

But you are right, it is SSI that will be able to give the conclusive answer. Has anybody bothered to contact them?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:59 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:This is in regard to publications: books, pamphlets, cd, dvd. Webcasts are technically not publications.

But you are right, it is SSI that will be able to give the conclusive answer. Has anybody bothered to contact them?


Webcasts are included in SSI copyrights, since all webcasts are later published in CDs and DVDs, and they are available for students to buy them through SSI.
But again this is only my personal understanding and common sense.... :smile:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Karma Dorje » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:55 am

Holy acrimony, Batman. I didn't realize that copyright law has been elevated to inclusion in the vinaya now. When you go to a teaching with Rinpoche, there is no rule to not record or photograph. I find it extremely hard to believe that he would be concerned with a student recording teachings for his or her own use, and certainly such a recording is sanctioned by fair use laws in Canada for example. Not sure if that's true in our backwards neighbour to the south, but it's hardly unethical. The only things I have ever been told not to record at a teaching for any lama is empowerment ceremonies and certain direct introductions.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:36 am

:namaste:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

So - let's see how that plays out in the DC.

Hmnnnnnn.

So if someone were to put the unrestricted collected works of ChNNR on the web, allowing one copy for personal use only, and for educational purposes only, hmnnnnnnnn?

If someone were to put the restricted collected works of ChNNR on a "Members of the DC" only website, or equivalent sign in, vetted, section of DW, with the same caveats, hmnnnnnnnn?

Maybe SSI can be funded from other sources than high priced sales of the ChNNR material, or maybe SSI can offer a full bells and whistles, high production value version, and the free on the web version would be low production value, for practitioners only.

I wonder if having the collected works - free on the web, with membership caveats as appropriate, would help the community grow and help practitioners (of all economic status) realize the benefits of the Teachings?

I wonder if this would help the reputation of the DC, as regards equal access to the Teachings for all economic classes? Perhaps it would attract more new people as it would be seen as an example of open-hearted kindness AND NORMAL PEOPLE ARE ATTRACTED TO THAT.

Hmnnnnnnnn?

So would this mean that if all /ALL of ChNNr's transcripts were in one data base, then it would be possible to have a search engine that would list the key word / phrase, down the center of the page, with a sentence before and a sentence after, with hyper-link, one click, jump to the original citation in full context?

Any computer geniuses out there? Any idea how much this would cost and how it could be implemented? Maybe crowd sourcing, and crowd funding, could get it done in a year.

Hmnnnnnnnn? The mind boggles. Perhaps a fully boggled mind is a sign of a good Dzogchen practitioner. Having exhausted all /ALL possibilities of intellectual understanding, perhaps (fully boggled) I can then relax in the vast luminous clarity of the natural mind. :smile:

:heart:

ob
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:23 am

The material is already out there Bob. I would not get it though, cause the person(s) responsible has broken their samaya in doing so. Also while I don't know them, I had a short communication with one of them and saw no reason to believe it was done for anything other than personal interest and grudges.
Otherwise I like your ideas for students. But ideas are cheap, implementing them isn't. The knowledge and money has to come from somewhere. Unfortunately I lack both so can't help you. :(

As for webcasts, if there is a clause that you can't record them for yourself (never heard of it personaly) I would not obey it unless it came from Rinpoche himself. And even then I would write to him and tell him it's not good. Because I find it ridicolous that supposed dharma practitioners would prevent other practitioners from doing so. With that line of though notes would be outlawed too. Teachings are to be put into practice but it's not so easy if you're allowed to hear something only once. Especially if you have poor memory like myself. Oh unless you pay for it of course... :roll:
There is no intention for the benefit of others in that way of thinking.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Soar » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:15 am

I saw it said "no replays" not no recordings.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:44 am

Soar wrote:I saw it said "no replays" not no recordings.
:yinyang:


So doesn't that separate those who have a computer, have a good internet connection, have a recording program, and know how to use it, and have the leisure and opportunity to be awake at the time that a no-replays Teaching is given - from the rest of the world of interested Members of the DC?????????

This is precisely what is meant by UNEQUAL access to the Teachings.

Why should those who are more technically competent, and wealthy enough to afford computer stuff, be given privileged access to the Teachings?????

Perhaps normal people take one look at this, and run away from this unkind silliness. It is just not a serious way to teach Dharma.

ob
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:47 am

Pero wrote,":roll:
There is no intention for the benefit of others in that way of thinking."

Sadly - this is the appearance that is given.

:roll:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby simhanada » Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:37 am

oldbob, what about the line, "if you haven't attended the teaching you shouldn't listen to the webcast" I guess being along the same lines of if you haven't had the lung(or at the least, given permission) you shouldn't be reading the text. I've extended that to webcasts for myself. If I'm not attending I wouldn't listen to the replay. Although if I had received the same teaching in the past I have no problems listening to a replay if I haven't listened to the original.

I think its worth reminding ourselves that Rinpoche and the webcast team, more than any other sangha I can think of, with maybe the exception of Ajahn Brahm's, have made the teachings widely available and accessible. There are webcasts all year round for those interested to attend, for free. You need to be able to have computer and internet access and the available time but for many people those are surmountable problems.

I wonder where we'd be if Rinpoche et al had never instigated webcasts.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby arsent » Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:27 am

oldbob wrote:
Soar wrote:I saw it said "no replays" not no recordings.
:yinyang:


So doesn't that separate those who have a computer, have a good internet connection, have a recording program, and know how to use it, and have the leisure and opportunity to be awake at the time that a no-replays Teaching is given - from the rest of the world of interested Members of the DC?????????

This is precisely what is meant by UNEQUAL access to the Teachings.

Why should those who are more technically competent, and wealthy enough to afford computer stuff, be given privileged access to the Teachings?????

Perhaps normal people take one look at this, and run away from this unkind silliness. It is just not a serious way to teach Dharma.

ob


Bob!
What about those people that were disabled during historical times of teachings of Buddha Shakyamuni?
If you can't walk you can't attend a teaching, correct?
So if you going to listen webcast - you have to have computer and internet connection minimum, another way - go, take you time and effort to attend retreat personally! Agreed?
What I want to say - all the time, every historical period, there are people with different abilities and different levels of understanding and connection to the teachings and the teacher himself..
So why anyone would have an idea to rearrange everyone course of his point of view? I already have a life experience in the country with such principals - named Soviet Union :(
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby muni » Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:16 am

simhanada wrote:
I wonder where we'd be if Rinpoche et al had never instigated webcasts.


Where? Maybe "at the side" of the excluded suffering beings, for who the treasure is not reachable. Out.

How is the conduct? Oh, I saw a note about the Bodhicaryavatara. :thanks:
Rinpoche also mentioned on a video I saw from a teaching in Hongkong the four noble truths, even in a bit different way in Dzogchen, but its very importance to understand. No idea.

Rinpoche-students, a wonderful connection. :namaste:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby muni » Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:23 am

By the way, I am technically :pig:, can only write/read on a pc by kind help.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Soar » Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:18 am

oldbob wrote:
Soar wrote:I saw it said "no replays" not no recordings.
:yinyang:


So doesn't that separate those who have a computer, have a good internet connection, have a recording program, and know how to use it, and have the leisure and opportunity to be awake at the time that a no-replays Teaching is given - from the rest of the world of interested Members of the DC?????????

This is precisely what is meant by UNEQUAL access to the Teachings.

Why should those who are more technically competent, and wealthy enough to afford computer stuff, be given privileged access to the Teachings?????

Perhaps normal people take one look at this, and run away from this unkind silliness. It is just not a serious way to teach Dharma.

ob


This is crazy. Free webcasts are not going to put off normal people. Of course small improvements can be made here and there but this is not the way to go about it. If you can be of benefit then get on with it quietly, stop trying to incite other people.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby muni » Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:08 pm

Stop to care, Bodhisattva! Then there are no problems.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:25 pm

simhanada wrote:oldbob, what about the line, "if you haven't attended the teaching you shouldn't listen to the webcast" I guess being along the same lines of if you haven't had the lung(or at the least, given permission) you shouldn't be reading the text. I've extended that to webcasts for myself. If I'm not attending I wouldn't listen to the replay. Although if I had received the same teaching in the past I have no problems listening to a replay if I haven't listened to the original.

I think its worth reminding ourselves that Rinpoche and the webcast team, more than any other sangha I can think of, with maybe the exception of Ajahn Brahm's, have made the teachings widely available and accessible. There are webcasts all year round for those interested to attend, for free. You need to be able to have computer and internet access and the available time but for many people those are surmountable problems.

I wonder where we'd be if Rinpoche et al had never instigated webcasts.


Hi simhanada, all and ALL,

:good: :good: :good:

You are putting the issues on the table.

Yes, the free webcasts are wonderful and a huge progress in the right direction.

Of course, I think that everyone should do exactly what their Teacher says, and follow his/her instructions, exactly and precisely.

That said, I think that different people will hear different things depending on what they bring to the table / where they are in their practice.

Perhaps - from one point of view (the pointing out instruction), the Dzogchen teachings are holographic and receiving one Teaching from a Dzogchen Master IS then beyond any question of permission to receive / read listen to and practice, all the Teachings (from a Dzogchen point of view):with no question of member / non member.

Please to remember that the webcasts are NOT contemporaneous with Rinpoche's actual speech. They are delayed by many seconds. Once you understand this, then you understand that ALL of Rinpoche's webcasts are exactly of the same nature as a replay. The replays are just delayed by more time.

From the side of Dzogchen, which is beyond all limits, and certainly beyond any issue of the three times, there is absolutely no question of "permission" or any issue of this sort. Perhaps, from the side of Dzogchen, this includes all Teachings and practices. :smile:

Either you are in the natural state or you are not.

Please to remember that ALL sentient beings possess the Buddha Seed, and from the point of view of the Buddha seed, it is beyond any question of the three times, or of Samsara and Nirvana.

THIS IS CALLED EQUAL ACCESS TO THE TEACHINGS: ALL TEACHINGS.

For those who feel better respecting a relative truth viewpoint that a practice will not function, unless you have the lung, then take the lung FROM RINPOCHE'S WEBCAST, OR REPLAYS, with the understanding that all webcasts are delayed in time.

What works for one person is NOT the same as what works for another. This is why Lord Buddha taught 84,000 (symbolizes many) different teachings, so there would be something for everyone.

It remains for each of us to work out our spiritual path / enlightenment with diligence.

Go for it! Go for what you know! Take the pointing out instruction and go for what is beyond what you know or don't know.

And yes, Ajan Braham is also making progress (as in "progress" so that more people can get the benefit of the teachings.) :smile: Perhaps he is also a great Dzogchen Master, the same as ChNNR.

Long life to the Dzogchen Masters, in good health and with success in all things.

:heart:

ob
Last edited by oldbob on Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby simhanada » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:58 pm

oldbob wrote:Please to remember that the webcasts are NOT contemporaneous with Rinpoche's actual speech. They are delayed by many seconds. Once you understand this, then you understand that ALL of Rinpoche's webcasts are exactly of the same nature as a replay. The replays are just delayed by more time.


I see it as myself and my teacher being in basically the same time frame and the sound takes a little longer than the people there in physical space to reach me. My teacher is there with the intention at that moment to convey the teaching to me and I am there with the intention to receive it. Even in meat space it takes time for sound leaving Rinpoche's mouth to reach my ears. I feel that listening to a replay is a bit different.

The alternative you propose does not make sense to me, that just listening to any recording is a lung. e.g. Rinpoche through SSI has made it clear if we do not have the transmission for some of the longsal teachings then we should not read the associated books. Are you saying all we need to do is listen to the associated retreat and then we have this permission? What about say SMS levels where permissions for certain teachings and practices are only given after passing a test. What if I'm poking around in the archives find a level 1 teaching and listen to it am I then qualified to go ahead and do those practices? If I wasn't at the closed yangti retreat and manage to get a recording and listen to it do I have the transmission? To me what your saying doesn't correspond to how Rinpoche is presenting his teachings to us.

Another example I just thought of is before webcasts we had the Word Wide Tranmission video tapes. The deal Rinpoche had was at a certain time Rinpoche would start practicing. We would start the tape and practice too. Its inevitable that we'd all be a bit out of sync but in general at that time we would all be there with the same intention. Rinpoche giving, us receiving. He didn't just give us the tapes and say watch it any old time and you'll have the transmission, why?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:44 pm

oldbob wrote:For those who feel better respecting a relative truth viewpoint that a practice will not function, unless you have the lung, then take the lung FROM RINPOCHE'S WEBCAST, OR REPLAYS, with the understanding that all webcasts are delayed in time.

Except this is exactly the opposite of what Rinpoche himself says. Though I personally also think that lung should be possible through a replay (like Dodrubchen Rinpoche used to send lungs on tapes to his US students), if the teacher giving the lung does not think so then that is what you should respect and act according to. Otherwise it basically amounts to you saying you received a transmission while your teacher says you did not. And that does not bode well for your practice at all.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:17 pm

simhanada wrote:I feel that listening to a replay is a bit different.
Essentially you are listening to a replay anyway. The teaching is recorded, transformed to binary and then transmitted. So drawing the line at the replay of something said a second, minute, hour, day, week, month, year ago seems kind of arbitrary really doesn't it?

If the intention of the person being recorded is to transmit something, and the intention of the person watching it is to receive something, then where is the problem?

Is there some sort of expiry/use by date on intention? Who defines this date?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:49 pm

simhanada wrote:
oldbob wrote:Please to remember that the webcasts are NOT contemporaneous with Rinpoche's actual speech. They are delayed by many seconds. Once you understand this, then you understand that ALL of Rinpoche's webcasts are exactly of the same nature as a replay. The replays are just delayed by more time.


I see it as myself and my teacher being in basically the same time frame and the sound takes a little longer than the people there in physical space to reach me. My teacher is there with the intention at that moment to convey the teaching to me and I am there with the intention to receive it. Even in meat space it takes time for sound leaving Rinpoche's mouth to reach my ears. I feel that listening to a replay is a bit different.

The alternative you propose does not make sense to me, that just listening to any recording is a lung. e.g. Rinpoche through SSI has made it clear if we do not have the transmission for some of the longsal teachings then we should not read the associated books. Are you saying all we need to do is listen to the associated retreat and then we have this permission? What about say SMS levels where permissions for certain teachings and practices are only given after passing a test. What if I'm poking around in the archives find a level 1 teaching and listen to it am I then qualified to go ahead and do those practices? If I wasn't at the closed yangti retreat and manage to get a recording and listen to it do I have the transmission? To me what your saying doesn't correspond to how Rinpoche is presenting his teachings to us.

Another example I just thought of is before webcasts we had the Word Wide Tranmission video tapes. The deal Rinpoche had was at a certain time Rinpoche would start practicing. We would start the tape and practice too. Its inevitable that we'd all be a bit out of sync but in general at that time we would all be there with the same intention. Rinpoche giving, us receiving. He didn't just give us the tapes and say watch it any old time and you'll have the transmission, why?


All good points and well taken. I think for you, you need to listen to what your heart is telling you that Rinpoche is meaning. Another view is that Rinpoche is ALWAYS transmitting and there is never a gap or a pause in the transmission. THEN whenever you take the lung from a repaly it is ok.

Think about it and do what is right for you. Maybe I am completely wrong,

but IT WORKS FOR ME. :smile:

Best,

ob

PS Now off the web till Tuesday in transit back to the USA.
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