Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby simhanada » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:11 am

gregkavarnos wrote:And where exactly does "the Guru" say "No recordings!"?


Exactly, and why would he? It makes no sense. Rinpoche shouldn't have to micromanage all our collective neurosis. Sometimes we should just use our common sense and get on with things.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Clarence » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:40 pm

Guess I misread something. Would have sworn someone said he said no recordings.
BTW, there are Lamas who prohibit any recording so I wouldnt judge too fast.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:18 pm

I am not judging, I am asking for clarification. If there is a "no recordings" policy then I will have to edit some of the posts in this thread, if there is not...
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Clarence » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:34 pm

No worries Greg. I thought Simhananda came across a little judgy.

Anyway, I hope the teachings were beneficial to all.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Jikan » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:37 pm

I don't know if there's a no recordings policy. I do know that ChNN discourages students from discussing and especially debating the teachings in public. I've read this in his books intended for private distribution, and heard it first hand, in person. The example he often gives is of a DC student encountering a practitioner in another tradition, maybe a Gelugpa. There are likely to be differences in view and practice. Do you debate with the person to convince him or her that the DC way is better? NO. Better to keep a low profile.

I think it's worthwhile to reflect on this one. How much of what kind of chatter is useful or helpful? *particularly* among students of the same master?

I mean that as an open-ended question, not as a rhetorical one. I'd like to know what DC people in particular think on this one.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Simon E. » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:18 pm

No chatter, of any kind, is useful in this context. I.M.O.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby simhanada » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:29 pm

Clarence wrote:No worries Greg. I thought Simhananda came across a little judgy.


sorry about that Clarance, one of my many foibles.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sherlock » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:30 pm

I think in some cases on this thread, there has been a little too much chatter, I myself am guilty of some of that. I think it is most important not to post any specifics of the teaching such as techniques, mantras and visualizations, even some more general teachings of our teachers, beyond that which is found in the sutras, we should try not to speak too much about in public.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:23 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:@Dronma:

I won't ask because I don't record anything, as simple as that.
If you record a webcast for strictly personal use, you're certainly not breaking any laws, though.


Thank you for the reply, treehuggingoctopus! :smile:
However, it is different what you are just saying than your previous statement: "It is perfectly legal".
Because it is not! ;)
As we can read in all materials which are related with the teachings and they are distributed inside DC:
"All rights of translation, reproduction and partial or total use in any form whatsoever are reserved in all countries" by Shang Shung Institute, of course.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:38 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Dronma wrote:2) it is not legal, nor ethical..... ;)
It seems to me that there is neither an ethical nor a legal issue involved if the recordings are made for personal use. Of course a recording renders the wangs and lungs. Neither do I believe there is a legal or ethical issue involved for the closed webcasts, again though, if the recording is made strictly for personal use...

Anyway, considering some of the bizzare hours that the webcasts are made, or due to a students personal and professional responsibilities, do you think it is better for them to miss out on a teaching or to record it and watch it at a later hour?

As for copyright, that only applies if you try to sell the recordings or claim them as you own.


Dear Greg,
first of all I am not the one who is responsible to reply in any of your questions.
As I already said, Shang Shung Institute keeps all copyrights inside DC, since the only income of SSI is by donations and by selling this teaching materials to students.
So, everybody who is interested has to ask for permission directly from SSI.
However, it is not ethical, nor legal somebody to exhort publicly other people for applying such methods.
It is simple as that.... :smile:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby dzogchungpa » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:47 pm

Dronma wrote:However, it is different what you are just saying than your previous statement: "It is perfectly legal".
Because it is not! ;)
As we can read in all materials which are related with the teachings and they are distributed inside DC:
"All rights of translation, reproduction and partial or total use in any form whatsoever are reserved in all countries" by Shang Shung Institute, of course. [/color]

The question is, what law is broken if one records a webcast?
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:49 pm

Dronma wrote:As we can read in all materials which are related with the teachings and they are distributed inside DC:
"All rights of translation, reproduction and partial or total use in any form whatsoever are reserved in all countries" by Shang Shung Institute, of course.
This is in regard to publications: books, pamphlets, cd, dvd. Webcasts are technically not publications.

But you are right, it is SSI that will be able to give the conclusive answer. Has anybody bothered to contact them?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:59 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:This is in regard to publications: books, pamphlets, cd, dvd. Webcasts are technically not publications.

But you are right, it is SSI that will be able to give the conclusive answer. Has anybody bothered to contact them?


Webcasts are included in SSI copyrights, since all webcasts are later published in CDs and DVDs, and they are available for students to buy them through SSI.
But again this is only my personal understanding and common sense.... :smile:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Karma Dorje » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:55 am

Holy acrimony, Batman. I didn't realize that copyright law has been elevated to inclusion in the vinaya now. When you go to a teaching with Rinpoche, there is no rule to not record or photograph. I find it extremely hard to believe that he would be concerned with a student recording teachings for his or her own use, and certainly such a recording is sanctioned by fair use laws in Canada for example. Not sure if that's true in our backwards neighbour to the south, but it's hardly unethical. The only things I have ever been told not to record at a teaching for any lama is empowerment ceremonies and certain direct introductions.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:36 am

:namaste:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

So - let's see how that plays out in the DC.

Hmnnnnnn.

So if someone were to put the unrestricted collected works of ChNNR on the web, allowing one copy for personal use only, and for educational purposes only, hmnnnnnnnn?

If someone were to put the restricted collected works of ChNNR on a "Members of the DC" only website, or equivalent sign in, vetted, section of DW, with the same caveats, hmnnnnnnnn?

Maybe SSI can be funded from other sources than high priced sales of the ChNNR material, or maybe SSI can offer a full bells and whistles, high production value version, and the free on the web version would be low production value, for practitioners only.

I wonder if having the collected works - free on the web, with membership caveats as appropriate, would help the community grow and help practitioners (of all economic status) realize the benefits of the Teachings?

I wonder if this would help the reputation of the DC, as regards equal access to the Teachings for all economic classes? Perhaps it would attract more new people as it would be seen as an example of open-hearted kindness AND NORMAL PEOPLE ARE ATTRACTED TO THAT.

Hmnnnnnnnn?

So would this mean that if all /ALL of ChNNr's transcripts were in one data base, then it would be possible to have a search engine that would list the key word / phrase, down the center of the page, with a sentence before and a sentence after, with hyper-link, one click, jump to the original citation in full context?

Any computer geniuses out there? Any idea how much this would cost and how it could be implemented? Maybe crowd sourcing, and crowd funding, could get it done in a year.

Hmnnnnnnnn? The mind boggles. Perhaps a fully boggled mind is a sign of a good Dzogchen practitioner. Having exhausted all /ALL possibilities of intellectual understanding, perhaps (fully boggled) I can then relax in the vast luminous clarity of the natural mind. :smile:

:heart:

ob
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:23 am

The material is already out there Bob. I would not get it though, cause the person(s) responsible has broken their samaya in doing so. Also while I don't know them, I had a short communication with one of them and saw no reason to believe it was done for anything other than personal interest and grudges.
Otherwise I like your ideas for students. But ideas are cheap, implementing them isn't. The knowledge and money has to come from somewhere. Unfortunately I lack both so can't help you. :(

As for webcasts, if there is a clause that you can't record them for yourself (never heard of it personaly) I would not obey it unless it came from Rinpoche himself. And even then I would write to him and tell him it's not good. Because I find it ridicolous that supposed dharma practitioners would prevent other practitioners from doing so. With that line of though notes would be outlawed too. Teachings are to be put into practice but it's not so easy if you're allowed to hear something only once. Especially if you have poor memory like myself. Oh unless you pay for it of course... :roll:
There is no intention for the benefit of others in that way of thinking.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Soar » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:15 am

I saw it said "no replays" not no recordings.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:44 am

Soar wrote:I saw it said "no replays" not no recordings.
:yinyang:


So doesn't that separate those who have a computer, have a good internet connection, have a recording program, and know how to use it, and have the leisure and opportunity to be awake at the time that a no-replays Teaching is given - from the rest of the world of interested Members of the DC?????????

This is precisely what is meant by UNEQUAL access to the Teachings.

Why should those who are more technically competent, and wealthy enough to afford computer stuff, be given privileged access to the Teachings?????

Perhaps normal people take one look at this, and run away from this unkind silliness. It is just not a serious way to teach Dharma.

ob
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:47 am

Pero wrote,":roll:
There is no intention for the benefit of others in that way of thinking."

Sadly - this is the appearance that is given.

:roll:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby simhanada » Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:37 am

oldbob, what about the line, "if you haven't attended the teaching you shouldn't listen to the webcast" I guess being along the same lines of if you haven't had the lung(or at the least, given permission) you shouldn't be reading the text. I've extended that to webcasts for myself. If I'm not attending I wouldn't listen to the replay. Although if I had received the same teaching in the past I have no problems listening to a replay if I haven't listened to the original.

I think its worth reminding ourselves that Rinpoche and the webcast team, more than any other sangha I can think of, with maybe the exception of Ajahn Brahm's, have made the teachings widely available and accessible. There are webcasts all year round for those interested to attend, for free. You need to be able to have computer and internet access and the available time but for many people those are surmountable problems.

I wonder where we'd be if Rinpoche et al had never instigated webcasts.
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