Changes to Come Sutra

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Changes to Come Sutra

Postby Will » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:08 am

Buddha on the destruction of the Dharma: http://www.cttbusa.org/changes_to_come/changes.htm
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Changes to Come Sutra

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:24 pm

This stuff has always been happening.
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The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
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Re: Changes to Come Sutra

Postby Will » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:58 pm

When the 'stuff' has happened long enough, by enough Sangha members, it is fatal to the Dharma.
Consuming a little poison over time will kill, just like one big dose. Or think of the frog bathing in the cool water, which is slowly being heated to boiling...
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Changes to Come Sutra

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:26 pm

Thing is, why spend so much time stressing over something that is unavoidable? Yeah, the Dharma is in decline. Yeah, the sangha is in a state of decay. Yeah, all trace of the Buddha will vanish from this world system. And? I think the point behind these types of texts is to goad the practitioner into making a stronger more determined effort to not sink into the quagmire. It's not like they are saying something that wasn't happening even during the Buddhas day. The question is, what are we doing whilst everything slowly and surely crumbles around us? That's, what I reckon, is the central message
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Changes to Come Sutra

Postby Simon E. » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:30 pm

Will wrote:Buddha on the destruction of the Dharma: http://www.cttbusa.org/changes_to_come/changes.htm

Gosh he 's put on some weight..he looks quite chubby.
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Re: Changes to Come Sutra

Postby Will » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:53 am

Greg: I think the point behind these types of texts is to goad the practitioner into making a stronger more determined effort to not sink into the quagmire.


Right, which is why I posted it. Carrots are a good motivator, but in these times I think a stress-stick is more effective.
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Changes to Come Sutra

Postby dude » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:43 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Thing is, why spend so much time stressing over something that is unavoidable? Yeah, the Dharma is in decline. Yeah, the sangha is in a state of decay. Yeah, all trace of the Buddha will vanish from this world system. And? I think the point behind these types of texts is to goad the practitioner into making a stronger more determined effort to not sink into the quagmire. It's not like they are saying something that wasn't happening even during the Buddhas day. The question is, what are we doing whilst everything slowly and surely crumbles around us? That's, what I reckon, is the central message



[, all trace of the Buddha will vanish from this world system. And?[//i]
And? Well, and when that happens it will be a bad thing!

'The Buddha told the Bhikshus, "After my Nirvana these deviant deeds and fifteen sets of disorders will bring the Dharma to extinction. How painful it will be then! If there are Bhikshus among you who sincerely wish to reverently study the Way, you should throw out all showy pretense and not seek fame or reputation...'


[i]I think the point behind these types of texts is to goad the practitioner into making a stronger more determined effort to not sink into the quagmire.

You're right. The Buddha is here leaving behind instructions for how to practice correctly after his death, a time when "disputes and quarrels will arise between adherents of my teachings."

"With a nature that is straightforward and innocent you should guard the truth and propagate the orthodox Sutras, the exalted canon of the Buddha, and the profound transformations of the Dharma, but avoid using too many words in explaining them. You should rely on the original explanation of the Sutra and not abandon the proper phrasings. In using special terms and repetitions, you should not allow the Buddha's intent to become lost."

I submit that the above encapsulates the Buddha's directions how we as his followers now should practice, whether this is the dawning of a new golden age or the end of the world as we know it.
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Re: Changes to Come Sutra

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:53 pm

dude wrote:[i][, all trace of the Buddha will vanish from this world system. And?[//i]
And? Well, and when that happens it will be a bad thing!
Until the next good thing (Maitreya) happens and then the whole degenration of the teachings thing starts from scratch (again). It happened with the previous 27 Buddhas so why get all "hot under the collar" about it happening to the dispensation of the current (Gautama) Buddha?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Changes to Come Sutra

Postby dude » Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:35 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
dude wrote:[i][, all trace of the Buddha will vanish from this world system. And?[//i]
And? Well, and when that happens it will be a bad thing!
Until the next good thing (Maitreya) happens and then the whole degenration of the teachings thing starts from scratch (again). It happened with the previous 27 Buddhas so why get all "hot under the collar" about it happening to the dispensation of the current (Gautama) Buddha?


Because the Buddha said I should.

"If even a good monk sees someone destroying the teaching and disregards him, failing to reproach him, to oust him, or to punish him for his offense, then you should realize that that monk is betraying the Buddha’s teaching."
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Re: Changes to Come Sutra

Postby Yudron » Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:42 pm

dude wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
dude wrote:[i][, all trace of the Buddha will vanish from this world system. And?[//i]
And? Well, and when that happens it will be a bad thing!
Until the next good thing (Maitreya) happens and then the whole degenration of the teachings thing starts from scratch (again). It happened with the previous 27 Buddhas so why get all "hot under the collar" about it happening to the dispensation of the current (Gautama) Buddha?


Because the Buddha said I should.

"If even a good monk sees someone destroying the teaching and disregards him, failing to reproach him, to oust him, or to punish him for his offense, then you should realize that that monk is betraying the Buddha’s teaching."


If you are some kind of Buddhist clergy, then this might at times be appropriate. But this doesn't say anything about lay people reproaching others.
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Re: Changes to Come Sutra

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:25 pm

dude wrote: "If even a good monk sees someone destroying the teaching and disregards him, failing to reproach him, to oust him, or to punish him for his offense, then you should realize that that monk is betraying the Buddha’s teaching."
You are a monk?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Changes to Come Sutra

Postby dude » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:12 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
dude wrote: "If even a good monk sees someone destroying the teaching and disregards him, failing to reproach him, to oust him, or to punish him for his offense, then you should realize that that monk is betraying the Buddha’s teaching."
You are a monk?


Let me answer that question with a question: If I am, does that make me more of an authority? If I'm not, or for example if I'm a low ranking monk, do the words of a priest, or a fellow monk with a higher status in the temple than mine carry more weight than my own?
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Re: Changes to Come Sutra

Postby Will » Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:10 am

While the sutra is aimed at the Sangha of bhikshus, who are the main holders & teachers of Dharma, lay folk are their source of support. So lay folk are concerned when they see their exemplars become corrupt, and have every reason to get upset, sad or disgusted.

Some may withdraw support and say or do nothing else. Others may do & say a lot. So be it.
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Changes to Come Sutra

Postby dude » Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:30 am

Will wrote:While the sutra is aimed at the Sangha of bhikshus, who are the main holders & teachers of Dharma, lay folk are their source of support. So lay folk are concerned when they see their exemplars become corrupt, and have every reason to get upset, sad or disgusted.

Some may withdraw support and say or do nothing else. Others may do & say a lot. So be it.



True enough. A monk's responsibility would be issue a reprimand or punishment, maybe even expel the offender from the temple, while for a lay person, it would be hold the temple as a whole accountable and withdraw support for it if it had become corrupted or lost the path of practice.
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Re: Changes to Come Sutra

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:04 am

dude wrote:Let me answer that question with a question: If I am, does that make me more of an authority?
It is not a question of authority, it has to do with the fact that the quote you made refers specifically to a monk.
If I'm not, or for example if I'm a low ranking monk, do the words of a priest, or a fellow monk with a higher status in the temple than mine carry more weight than my own?
Depends.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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