Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:07 pm

I thought he specifically said he isn't giving it....
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:37 am

Dronma wrote:
oldbob wrote:One post mentioned that people were successful ordering the book after they just had referred to having DI from ChNNR.

I can also confirm this. :smile:

oldbob wrote:In the vast luminous space beyond any characteristics, all apparent differences are resolved. It remains for each of us to work out our path with diligence. in Dzogchen, this includes going beyond all limits what so ever, to include all practices and Teachings.

Dharma belongs freely to everyone who seeks enlightenment. The open presentation of all knowledge on the web insures that there are no secrets, but what is "self secret." The evolution of traditional ways of presenting the Dharma is a good thing and will be very interesting to both observe and participate in.

ob

:heart:




There are no solid guidelines for the inner path of every individual.
As an example, Yeshe Lama came in my hands one day without even asking for it!
Magical apparitions, maybe....?!?! :tongue:
[/quote


]It just means you have a strong connection with the text and its Teaching.

When I was in Kathmandu, in 79, for the HH Dudjom wangs and lungs, several strangers came up to me and gave me Dzogchen texts for free, without my asking :woohoo:

Parallel dimensions, the smell of Rigpa, past life connections??? Who knows. It is nice when it happens.

Make the wish.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:47 am

Thoughts on Togal, secrecy and permissions, posted here, in light (pardon the pun) of the closed webcast for the Dzogchen Community coming up in a few hours.

Short and sweet.

The mechanics of Togal have been available - open source, for years, many years. Yogi Chen's books include it, as did Heart Drops of Dharmakaya, which revealed the Bonpo system.

http://www.amazon.com/wiki/Yogi_Chen

http://www.amazon.com/Heart-Drops-Dharm ... dharmakaya

The Yeshe Lama is now approaching open source status.

There are many different arguments for restrictions and secrecy. Given the open source availability of the mechanics of this teaching, it is wise and prudent to publish strong protection advice for those who might be tempted to try this Teaching, on their own, without receiving the full instructions from a lineage holder.

That said, the fearless wish fulfilling Jewell of Dzogchen, ChNNR, has taught Togal, fully and openly, to anyone who showed up at a retreat where he was teaching this, for more than 30 years. A Barry Simmons redaction of this teaching was circulating openly when I first went to Italy in '81. The last time it was openly taught, in Tenerife, in 2011, anyone who wanted to attend had to write to ChNNR and request permission. He then announced, during the retreat, that no one was turned away. Things are evolving. I think that this mornings webcast will be the first time that this material has been taught on the web, by a lineage holder. Things are evolving.

THE FIRST KEY POINT OF PROTECTION IS THAT IF SOMEONE OF SIMPLE MIND LEARNS OF THIS TEACHING, FROM A BOOK, AND THEN GOES OUT AND TRIES IT WITHOUT FULL INSTRUCTION FROM A LINEAGE HOLDER, THEY MIGHT PERMANENTLY DAMAGE THEIR EYE SIGHT.

THE SECOND KEY POINT OF PROTECTION IS THAT TOGAL PRACTICE MAY INVOLVE THE EXTERNALIZATION OF INNER VISION, JUST THE SAME AS ORDINARY VISION, AND FOR SOMEONE OF UNBALANCED MIND, OR UNDEVELOPED PRACTICE, THIS COULD CAUSE HEAVY FUNCTIONAL PROBLEMS.

THE THIRD KEY POINT OF PROTECTION IS THAT EVEN IF YOU OBTAIN THE MECHANICS OF TOGAL FROM AN OPEN SOURCE OR RESTRICTED BOOK, LINEAGE HOLDERS WILL ALWAYS GIVE ORAL INFORMATION, FROM THEIR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, THAT IS NOT AVAILABLE IN BOOKS. THESE ARE THE KEYS THAT UNLOCK THE PRACTICE.

THE FORTH KEY POINT OF PROTECTION IS THAT YOU ASK YOUR ROOT TEACHER FOR PERMISSION BEFORE ATTEMPTING THIS PRACTICE. YOU ARE ASKING IF HE / SHE THINKS YOU ARE READY TO PRACTICE TOGAL.

It is wise and prudent to include a nurse / doctor / psychologist at YL retreats in the West.

With sincere best wishes to Khyentse Yeshe as he evolves the practice of Dharma in the West.

http://tsegyalgar.org/theteachers/khyentseyeshe/

Long life to Khyentse Yeshe, in good health and with success in all things.

ob :heart:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:40 am

heart wrote:
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
heart wrote:Did he do that today?

/magnus


He gave 'formal' DI yesterday but he also implied that he was giving it the whole time he was teaching...


I think your and mine idea of direct introduction differ then.

/magnus


It's not 'my' idea, magnus. I didn't say anything about my ideas on the subject. I only reported what KY himself said - or, to be more precise, what I believe he said very clearly.

So if your idea of DI differs, it differs from KY's, not from mine.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby heart » Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:54 am

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
heart wrote:
I think your and mine idea of direct introduction differ then.

/magnus


It's not 'my' idea, magnus. I didn't say anything about my ideas on the subject. I only reported what KY himself said - or, to be more precise, what I believe he said very clearly.

So if your idea of DI differs, it differs from KY's, not from mine.


I didn't hear him say that nor did I notice any direct introduction that day. It is funny, we watch and listen to the same teachings but we experience them completely different.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby MalaBeads » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:48 pm

I think I am more interested in figuring out how can you reach the "me" generation and teach them kindness. Anyone have any ideas?


OB,

Perhaps you should teach Mahayana. Be the change you want to see in the world.

As far as what KY taught today, i heard several things that i can begin to put into practice, to bring to fruition. He said enough that was practical, that will carry me for a long time to come. And for this i am grateful. His personal "style" is irrelevant to me.

I could chittle and chattle on some more but there is no point in doing so. Everyone will hear from todays teachings what they are able to hear based on their previous experience, on their frame of reference.

If i were to offer anything here, it would be to remind people of something that ChNN has been saying alot lately, that dzogchen is not a tradition. Of course people organize and codify the teachings they hear, they write books, etc., this is one of the things that people do, but when you get right down to it, dzogchen cannot be organized or codified in any way whatsoever. This is why the way KY lives his life, the way he teaches, makes his living, etc. etc. etc. is irrelevant to me. It is a subtle but important point i think. At least for me. Lol.

Ciao.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Yudron » Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:39 pm

Wow Old Bob--one day I get the impression you think KY is a hero liberating Dzogchen from the evil “Dharma Police” and the next day he is a demon selling Dzogchen to the highest bidder. May I humbly suggest that both are just concepts?

My own conceptual dualistic mind wants to interject something here, for better or worse. However the DC lamas present Dzogchen is between them and their students. The larger Nyingma world is going right on following lamas who have chosen to pass down the Dzogrim and Dzogchen with samaya to not chatter about it in public. Very serious samayas, taken with a lady with one sharp tooth as a witness. Somewhere in the transmission between Adzom Drupka—who was very strict about such things—and KY, some lineage holder decided not to pass on this samaya to his disciples. That is a lama’s decision, and I have no opinion about it. However, in case some of you are not in contact with traditional Nyingma lamas, I just want to chime in here and let you know that there is a big wide world of both the monastic and the yogi tradition who are carrying on keeping the Heart Essence in their hearts, not on the internet or in the town square. That is the gold standard.

Please consider this when you make posts about rushen and thogal here, it looks really weird to folks outside the context of the DC and Bon.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:34 pm

Well, it is April 1, so who knows what's going on?
The mark of learning is gentleness, basically. - Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sherlock » Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:45 pm

Yudron wrote: Very serious samayas, taken with a lady with one sharp tooth as a witness. Somewhere in the transmission between Adzom Drupka—who was very strict about such things—and KY, some lineage holder decided not to pass on this samaya to his disciples. That is a lama’s decision, and I have no opinion about it. However, in case some of you are not in contact with traditional Nyingma lamas, I just want to chime in here and let you know that there is a big wide world of both the monastic and the yogi tradition who are carrying on keeping the Heart Essence in their hearts, not on the internet or in the town square. That is the gold standard.

Please consider this when you make posts about rushen and thogal here, it looks really weird to folks outside the context of the DC and Bon.


ChNN emphasizes secrecy especially in his longde and upadesha teachings, he respects the samaya very well. Some other times he doesn't say it as much during the retreat, but it is definitely in his writings. Some of us disciples unfortunately don't know any better though, but I don't think there has been any specifics of rushen and thogal techniques posted here.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:44 pm

Yudron wrote:Wow Old Bob--one day I get the impression you think KY is a hero liberating Dzogchen from the evil “Dharma Police” and the next day he is a demon selling Dzogchen to the highest bidder. May I humbly suggest that both are just concepts?

My own conceptual dualistic mind wants to interject something here, for better or worse. However the DC lamas present Dzogchen is between them and their students. The larger Nyingma world is going right on following lamas who have chosen to pass down the Dzogrim and Dzogchen with samaya to not chatter about it in public. Very serious samayas, taken with a lady with one sharp tooth as a witness. Somewhere in the transmission between Adzom Drupka—who was very strict about such things—and KY, some lineage holder decided not to pass on this samaya to his disciples. That is a lama’s decision, and I have no opinion about it. However, in case some of you are not in contact with traditional Nyingma lamas, I just want to chime in here and let you know that there is a big wide world of both the monastic and the yogi tradition who are carrying on keeping the Heart Essence in their hearts, not on the internet or in the town square. That is the gold standard.

Please consider this when you make posts about rushen and thogal here, it looks really weird to folks outside the context of the DC and Bon.


Hi Yudron,

May I humbly suggest that your characterizations about what your impressions were about what I was writing or thinking about K Yeshe have nothing to do with what I wrote or intended and are 100 % your own projections. Sorry dear - not guilty of that one. But I do agree with you that all judgements are just concepts.

Best, ob
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Yudron » Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:06 pm

oldbob wrote:
Yudron wrote:Wow Old Bob--one day I get the impression you think KY is a hero liberating Dzogchen from the evil “Dharma Police” and the next day he is a demon selling Dzogchen to the highest bidder. May I humbly suggest that both are just concepts?

My own conceptual dualistic mind wants to interject something here, for better or worse. However the DC lamas present Dzogchen is between them and their students. The larger Nyingma world is going right on following lamas who have chosen to pass down the Dzogrim and Dzogchen with samaya to not chatter about it in public. Very serious samayas, taken with a lady with one sharp tooth as a witness. Somewhere in the transmission between Adzom Drupka—who was very strict about such things—and KY, some lineage holder decided not to pass on this samaya to his disciples. That is a lama’s decision, and I have no opinion about it. However, in case some of you are not in contact with traditional Nyingma lamas, I just want to chime in here and let you know that there is a big wide world of both the monastic and the yogi tradition who are carrying on keeping the Heart Essence in their hearts, not on the internet or in the town square. That is the gold standard.

Please consider this when you make posts about rushen and thogal here, it looks really weird to folks outside the context of the DC and Bon.


Hi Yudron,

May I humbly suggest that your characterizations about what your impressions were about what I was writing or thinking about K Yeshe have nothing to do with what I wrote or intended and are 100 % your own projections. Sorry dear - not guilty of that one. But I do agree with you that all judgements are just concepts.

Best, ob


Good!
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:13 am

Yeah, I've always experienced ChNN to have the same views toward samaya concerning discretion in talking about these practices and engaging in them as my other very traditional teachers. I think Rinpoche is unique and liberal in some ways but in many ways he's a lot more conservative than we sometimes think.

* Just to clarify, the "yeah" at the beginning of this post was because I thought I was posting right after Sherlock and e going his POV but apparently a couple of y'all beat me to the punch.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:52 am

heart wrote:
alpha wrote: is the third post down

"He offers direct introduction with every webcasted retreat, not just three times a year."


That statement is about ChNNR, no? I certainly agree that ChNNR does it every retreat. But did you get a direct introduction from Yeshe on this Saturday? Did he say he would give it?

/magnus


It is true that ChNN Rinpoche is giving DI in most retreats. However, it is always clear to everybody when Rinpoche is transmitting. No mystery, no doubt like maybe yes, maybe no....
It is there/here for everybody!
Whether everybody is able to recognize the state of Dzogchen or not at the moment of the transmission, it is however an other question...
But the intellectual mind, at least, can understand the procedure and can repeat it afterwards as many times it is necessary for discovering the experience (as Rinpoche is saying).
No mystery! No haze!

I am surprised to see here people argue whether there was a DI or not.
I did not follow this teaching, so I have no idea.
The best would be, for people who are interested, to ask directly Khyentse Yeshe and go beyond any doubt and haze.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:37 am

MalaBeads wrote:
I think I am more interested in figuring out how can you reach the "me" generation and teach them kindness. Anyone have any ideas?


OB,

Perhaps you should teach Mahayana. Be the change you want to see in the world.

As far as what KY taught today, i heard several things that i can begin to put into practice, to bring to fruition. He said enough that was practical, that will carry me for a long time to come. And for this i am grateful. His personal "style" is irrelevant to me.

I could chittle and chattle on some more but there is no point in doing so. Everyone will hear from todays teachings what they are able to hear based on their previous experience, on their frame of reference.

If i were to offer anything here, it would be to remind people of something that ChNN has been saying alot lately, that dzogchen is not a tradition. Of course people organize and codify the teachings they hear, they write books, etc., this is one of the things that people do, but when you get right down to it, dzogchen cannot be organized or codified in any way whatsoever. This is why the way KY lives his life, the way he teaches, makes his living, etc. etc. etc. is irrelevant to me. It is a subtle but important point i think. At least for me. Lol.

Ciao.


Hmnnnnn - Teach the Mahayana?

Two ways to approach the issue of approaching the Yeshe Lama from the point of view of the Mahayana.

http://longchennyingthikngondro.blogspo ... -mind.html

AND

http://www.bodhicitta.net/The%20Practic ... rables.htm

The key point is that Dzogchen (the Yeshe Lama or the collected works of ChNNR) can be taught from the viewpoint of any of the 4 major divisions of Buddhism.

From the Dzogchen side of "instant presence" / one taste, it makes absolutely no difference.

Sure, the 9 Amazing Things, or the 12 Vajra Laughs are true, but this is from within the view of Dzogchen and NOT from the side of normal human beings seeking Dzogchen Teachings.

From the point of view of normal human beings seeking Dzogchen instruction, the point of view from which Dzogchen is taught, can make a huge difference.

Taught from the view of the Pratyeka Buddha, Dzogchen appears to be very cold and without kindness.

http://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/pra ... index.html

I fear that many normal people run away from the DC because of the apparent lack of kindness of its members and some of the hierarchical social structures, especially as regards to equal access to the Teachings.

The traditional nundro teachings / SMS base level teachings, create a practical context from which the higher views can grow.

A Mahayana approach, (Dzogchen as if kindness matters) as applied to the recent Teaching of the Yeshe Lama by K Yeshe, could have the characteristics of:

Having a better translator for English, both in terms of English pronunciation and knowledge of the subject matter.

Use a de-esser to remove sibilance (the hissing sssss souud at the end of words) in the translators voice.

Learn to allow the translator enough time to do the translation, before starting to speak again.

Allowing the syllabus /text to be available on line, before the teaching started, so that everyone could follow along. (Not just those who had the great good fortune, and funds, to already own the text.)

Having better audio quality, and balance, between the translator's voice and K Yeshe's voice.

Allowing CDs and DVDs to be sold at cost.

Allowing replays so that those of the DC who are far from the Italian time zone wouldn't have to wake up in the middle of the night and disrupt their energy for the following day's work / activities, and this applies especially to the sick and elderly.

Allowing replays in an MP3 form that do not have to be restarted from the beginning if the play is interrupted.

Organizing Yeshe Lama study groups / practice groups at the different Gars and Lings of the DC.

Organizing transcripts of the talks to be available at low cost.

Have the retreat cost be on a sliding scale so that no one is turned away from lack of funds, and clearly publish this.

Have the retreat allow for doable work study for anyone seeking it.

etc, etc.

I am sure that many other ideas of kindly changes can be thought of and forwarded to K Yeshe for his kindly consideration.

We can all remember to send hugs to K Yeshe,

ob

:heart:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby muni » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:19 am

I think there are many who cannot get the teachings. Of course we can say: this is THEIR karma. I hear that so often regarding every suffering and so I am guided to have a icy heart. Its' cool, man! Shut up muni, knit your sock!
The concern to make Buddha's teachings accessible is never a concern who need my opinion.
Therefore I have no thing to say. Or maybe to make Dharma medicine able for disabled ones as well, no exclusion, mind makes no any exclusions at all. I don't know how is the Dzogchen Community, but Dharma can flourish from within understanding and so make it accessible for all, in appropriate way. Since those who can only read about all the great given lung and chang, is for me the same as seeing the delightful way for freedom from within the prison.

Teachings in a language breaking the icy heart has no permanent solid name.

:focus: of the core of the teaching. Thank you deeply for yours concern. Homage.
First there was nothing. Then God said: “ May there be light!” And there was light.
There was still nothing, but now that was much better to see.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:51 am

muni wrote:I think there are many who cannot get the teachings. Of course we can say: this is THEIR karma. I hear that so often regarding every suffering and so I am guided to have a icy heart.


Many seem to be. The idea that since one's problems are one's karma - and that since the absolute always absolutely outweighs the relative - we can more or less ignore relative suffering or limitations of others, unfortunately appears to be very widespread among Buddhists in the West, Dzogchen practitioners included.

Using one's commitment to absolute bodhicitta as an excuse to abandon one's commitment to relative bodhicitta: truly, a miracle of rare device.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby muni » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:41 am

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Many seem to be. The idea that since one's problems are one's karma - and that since the absolute always absolutely outweighs the relative - we can more or less ignore relative suffering or limitations of others, unfortunately appears to be very widespread among Buddhists in the West, Dzogchen practitioners included.

Using one's commitment to absolute bodhicitta as an excuse to abandon one's commitment to relative bodhicitta: truly, a miracle of rare device.



Yes. :oops:
Since buddhist methods or dzogchen method is enfolding nature; buddhist practices leading to the figurative all embracing ocean and dzogchen practice remaining the figurative all embracing ocean, it is clear separation of the two truths cannot free us from samsara's habits.
Vajra space or whatever word, wordless in no separation.
First there was nothing. Then God said: “ May there be light!” And there was light.
There was still nothing, but now that was much better to see.

All plays freely as a symphony orchestra without conductor.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dan Dorje » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:49 pm

muni wrote:The concern to make Buddha's teachings accessible is never a concern who need my opinion.


treehuggingoctopus wrote:Many seem to be. The idea that since one's problems are one's karma - and that since the absolute always absolutely outweighs the relative - we can more or less ignore relative suffering or limitations of others, unfortunately appears to be very widespread among Buddhists in the West, Dzogchen practitioners included.

Using one's commitment to absolute bodhicitta as an excuse to abandon one's commitment to relative bodhicitta: truly, a miracle of rare device.


:good:

I do remember when CNN said that our behavior should be based on Bodhicaryāvatāra. He also said that "working with circumstances" does not mean to do whatever bad thing we want. We should respect all dimensions and not create problems for someone.
It is student responsibility to achieve a correct understanding of teachings.

A practicant should be strict with himself and tolerant with others.
If others are interested or not, sincere or not, responsible or not, this is the job of the Teacher and Dharmapalas.

:namaste:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:43 pm

oldbob wrote:I fear that many normal people run away from the DC because of the apparent lack of kindness of its members....


Unfortunately, I have the same fear! I name this attitude: "spiritual arrogance"..... :emb:


Xango wrote:
oldbob wrote:
Allowing replays in an MP3 form that do not have to be restarted from the beginning if the play is interrupted.



you can fix by yourself the following way:
.......
Hope this helps, if something unclear please ask, I will do it with pictures :techproblem:



The real problem is that there is no replay of the teaching that oldbob is talking about. :shrug:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Xango » Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:23 pm

Hi,


I don't want to distract the discussion with technical issues, but this
Dronma wrote: The real problem is that there is no replay of the teaching that oldbob is talking about. :shrug:

you can also fix partially. There is the possibility to record the teaching from the webcast while running, for example with a sound recording program like Audacity (free download, easy to use). You can then later listen to the file again and again.

Of course, in this case you should at least be online at the beginning of the teaching to start the recording.

Greetings
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