Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby heart » Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:44 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
heart wrote:
treehuggingoctopus wrote:Yes he did. He gave direct introduction, and DR is quite enough to go into Yeshe Lama, says KY.


Did he do that today?

/magnus


He gave 'formal' DI yesterday but he also implied that he was giving it the whole time he was teaching...


I think your and mine idea of direct introduction differ then.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:07 pm

I thought he specifically said he isn't giving it....
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:37 am

Dronma wrote:
oldbob wrote:One post mentioned that people were successful ordering the book after they just had referred to having DI from ChNNR.

I can also confirm this. :smile:

oldbob wrote:In the vast luminous space beyond any characteristics, all apparent differences are resolved. It remains for each of us to work out our path with diligence. in Dzogchen, this includes going beyond all limits what so ever, to include all practices and Teachings.

Dharma belongs freely to everyone who seeks enlightenment. The open presentation of all knowledge on the web insures that there are no secrets, but what is "self secret." The evolution of traditional ways of presenting the Dharma is a good thing and will be very interesting to both observe and participate in.

ob

:heart:




There are no solid guidelines for the inner path of every individual.
As an example, Yeshe Lama came in my hands one day without even asking for it!
Magical apparitions, maybe....?!?! :tongue:
[/quote


]It just means you have a strong connection with the text and its Teaching.

When I was in Kathmandu, in 79, for the HH Dudjom wangs and lungs, several strangers came up to me and gave me Dzogchen texts for free, without my asking :woohoo:

Parallel dimensions, the smell of Rigpa, past life connections??? Who knows. It is nice when it happens.

Make the wish.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:47 am

Thoughts on Togal, secrecy and permissions, posted here, in light (pardon the pun) of the closed webcast for the Dzogchen Community coming up in a few hours.

Short and sweet.

The mechanics of Togal have been available - open source, for years, many years. Yogi Chen's books include it, as did Heart Drops of Dharmakaya, which revealed the Bonpo system.

http://www.amazon.com/wiki/Yogi_Chen

http://www.amazon.com/Heart-Drops-Dharm ... dharmakaya

The Yeshe Lama is now approaching open source status.

There are many different arguments for restrictions and secrecy. Given the open source availability of the mechanics of this teaching, it is wise and prudent to publish strong protection advice for those who might be tempted to try this Teaching, on their own, without receiving the full instructions from a lineage holder.

That said, the fearless wish fulfilling Jewell of Dzogchen, ChNNR, has taught Togal, fully and openly, to anyone who showed up at a retreat where he was teaching this, for more than 30 years. A Barry Simmons redaction of this teaching was circulating openly when I first went to Italy in '81. The last time it was openly taught, in Tenerife, in 2011, anyone who wanted to attend had to write to ChNNR and request permission. He then announced, during the retreat, that no one was turned away. Things are evolving. I think that this mornings webcast will be the first time that this material has been taught on the web, by a lineage holder. Things are evolving.

THE FIRST KEY POINT OF PROTECTION IS THAT IF SOMEONE OF SIMPLE MIND LEARNS OF THIS TEACHING, FROM A BOOK, AND THEN GOES OUT AND TRIES IT WITHOUT FULL INSTRUCTION FROM A LINEAGE HOLDER, THEY MIGHT PERMANENTLY DAMAGE THEIR EYE SIGHT.

THE SECOND KEY POINT OF PROTECTION IS THAT TOGAL PRACTICE MAY INVOLVE THE EXTERNALIZATION OF INNER VISION, JUST THE SAME AS ORDINARY VISION, AND FOR SOMEONE OF UNBALANCED MIND, OR UNDEVELOPED PRACTICE, THIS COULD CAUSE HEAVY FUNCTIONAL PROBLEMS.

THE THIRD KEY POINT OF PROTECTION IS THAT EVEN IF YOU OBTAIN THE MECHANICS OF TOGAL FROM AN OPEN SOURCE OR RESTRICTED BOOK, LINEAGE HOLDERS WILL ALWAYS GIVE ORAL INFORMATION, FROM THEIR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, THAT IS NOT AVAILABLE IN BOOKS. THESE ARE THE KEYS THAT UNLOCK THE PRACTICE.

THE FORTH KEY POINT OF PROTECTION IS THAT YOU ASK YOUR ROOT TEACHER FOR PERMISSION BEFORE ATTEMPTING THIS PRACTICE. YOU ARE ASKING IF HE / SHE THINKS YOU ARE READY TO PRACTICE TOGAL.

It is wise and prudent to include a nurse / doctor / psychologist at YL retreats in the West.

With sincere best wishes to Khyentse Yeshe as he evolves the practice of Dharma in the West.

http://tsegyalgar.org/theteachers/khyentseyeshe/

Long life to Khyentse Yeshe, in good health and with success in all things.

ob :heart:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:40 am

heart wrote:
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
heart wrote:Did he do that today?

/magnus


He gave 'formal' DI yesterday but he also implied that he was giving it the whole time he was teaching...


I think your and mine idea of direct introduction differ then.

/magnus


It's not 'my' idea, magnus. I didn't say anything about my ideas on the subject. I only reported what KY himself said - or, to be more precise, what I believe he said very clearly.

So if your idea of DI differs, it differs from KY's, not from mine.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby alpha » Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:44 am

heart wrote:
Did he do that today?

/magnus


treehuggingoctopus wrote:He gave 'formal' DI yesterday but he also implied that he was giving it the whole time he was teaching...


heart wrote:I think your and mine idea of direct introduction differ then.

/magnus



This is what Malcolm said about D.i.
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=10146

Based on this statement what Yeshi does can also be considered D.i
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby heart » Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:54 am

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
heart wrote:
I think your and mine idea of direct introduction differ then.

/magnus


It's not 'my' idea, magnus. I didn't say anything about my ideas on the subject. I only reported what KY himself said - or, to be more precise, what I believe he said very clearly.

So if your idea of DI differs, it differs from KY's, not from mine.


I didn't hear him say that nor did I notice any direct introduction that day. It is funny, we watch and listen to the same teachings but we experience them completely different.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby heart » Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:57 am

alpha wrote:
This is what Malcolm said about D.i.
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=10146

Based on this statement what Yeshi does can also be considered D.i


Malcolm says nothing about direct introduction on that page, what is your point?

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby alpha » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:06 am

heart wrote:
alpha wrote:
This is what Malcolm said about D.i.
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=10146

Based on this statement what Yeshi does can also be considered D.i


Malcolm says nothing about direct introduction on that page, what is your point?

/magnus

is the third post down

"He offers direct introduction with every webcasted retreat, not just three times a year."
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby heart » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:23 am

alpha wrote:
heart wrote:
alpha wrote:
This is what Malcolm said about D.i.
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=10146

Based on this statement what Yeshi does can also be considered D.i


Malcolm says nothing about direct introduction on that page, what is your point?

/magnus

is the third post down

"He offers direct introduction with every webcasted retreat, not just three times a year."


That statement is about ChNNR, no? I certainly agree that ChNNR does it every retreat. But did you get a direct introduction from Yeshe on this Saturday? Did he say he would give it?

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby alpha » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:56 am

heart wrote:That statement is about ChNNR, no? I certainly agree that ChNNR does it every retreat. But did you get a direct introduction from Yeshe on this Saturday? Did he say he would give it?

/magnus


At the beginning of the webcast i heard him saying that the the dzogchen introduction can be given in many ways and he wont be giving it in the traditional way but he will be giving it through expaining and going through the text which is what he's been doing so far.Something to that extent.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby heart » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:09 am

alpha wrote:
heart wrote:That statement is about ChNNR, no? I certainly agree that ChNNR does it every retreat. But did you get a direct introduction from Yeshe on this Saturday? Did he say he would give it?

/magnus


At the beginning of the webcast i heard him saying that the the dzogchen introduction can be given in many ways and he wont be giving it in the traditional way but he will be giving it through expaining and going through the text which is what he's been doing so far.Something to that extent.


Yes, maybe he said something like that. Not sure exactly how he put it. For sure direct introduction can happen in many different ways, but this is why you actually have to recognize what is pointed-out when it is pointed-out. So, there is a moment or not. What I am asking you and treehuggingoctopus is if you had that moment or not? I didn't.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby alpha » Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:01 pm

heart wrote:
alpha wrote:
heart wrote:That statement is about ChNNR, no? I certainly agree that ChNNR does it every retreat. But did you get a direct introduction from Yeshe on this Saturday? Did he say he would give it?

/magnus


At the beginning of the webcast i heard him saying that the the dzogchen introduction can be given in many ways and he wont be giving it in the traditional way but he will be giving it through expaining and going through the text which is what he's been doing so far.Something to that extent.


Yes, maybe he said something like that. Not sure exactly how he put it. For sure direct introduction can happen in many different ways, but this is why you actually have to recognize what is pointed-out when it is pointed-out. So, there is a moment or not. What I am asking you and treehuggingoctopus is if you had that moment or not? I didn't.

/magnus



It was lost somewhere in translation. :)
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby heart » Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:04 pm

alpha wrote:

It was lost somewhere in translation. :)


So it didn't happen then. :smile: Not listening to the Italian either I can assure you, at least for me.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:45 pm

Hugs to K Yeshe for his turning the wheel in his way!!!!

Interesting. Wow - shock and awe.

K Yeshe is very bright and is being open and direct about what works for him.

His is the very sophisticated, high value, high stress, world, of high priced corporate personnel training, filled with buzz words and new concept-of-the-moment, references: TED talk. His consulting web site lists a sliding scale of $500 to $1500 per day for his consulting services. He is a brand and considers himself VERY important. This is the sea in which K Yeshe - swims. Corporate board rooms, training rooms, and off-site seminars are his mileau.

People pay him big bucks to "improve" their company's profit and efficiency

K Yeshe is used to being listened to, and respected for his expertise, and never questioned or challenged about what he is presenting. My way or the high way, is a way of life.

K Yeshe wears the emperors new clothes very well. The clothes are very beautiful until people stop paying for his services: the music stops and perhaps there will be no chairs left for K Yeshe and his Team Leaders. Yeshe's "zero sum" approach to the monitization of the Dzogchen Community - has led to its present state of disrepair and financial crisis, in spite of ChNNR's being a perfect Teacher with perfect Teachings. Zero sum refers to a business modal based on maximizing market share: someone looses, if someone gains. Zero sum is the opposite of a win - win, everything for everybody, equal access to the Teachings - modal.

Teaching traditional Dharma, even ChNNR's open-hearted Dzogchen, K Yeshe is like a fish out of water. He doesn't get what he needs to be happy, and so moves on, quickly. This is what is happening.

In this seminar, the concepts of the Yeshe Lama were laid out quickly, using the text as a base, in a "snickety snack - don't look back" manner. Either you "get it" or you don't. There is no middle ground or guided practices for those who could benefit from the use of these slower methods. I think most people are left in K Yeshe's intellectual dust as he moved through things very, very quickly, presenting reasoned arguments in reasoned snippets, separated by quantum leaps of logic and dimension. It is clear that he understands - very well - what he is talking about, and damned be you if you don't keep up. I think most people are dazzled with the shock and awe of his intellectual tap dancing.

My reaction is, "Where's the beef?" Where is the contemplation? Where is the "instant presence?"

In this context, "Where's the beef?" means USEFUL practical take-away that either improves understanding or gives you some "value added" sense of having benefited from the experience of having listened to the web /cast or attended the seminar. No questions, no transcripts / cds / dvds / replays means NO interest in having a useful exchange of information. So one is left with "shock and awe" as the take away, and "the emperor's new clothes" effect insures no criticism, and "Wow this is wonderful, I "GOT IT," didn't you," as a social form.

After attending this seminar, If people want to carry interest in the Yeshe Lama forward, to learn it and practice it, they first have to come up with the $85 to buy the book,and the verbiage to satisfy the Dharma police. Then they read the book and are left with the choice of finding a traditional Yeshe Lama Teacher, doing nundro, Lama, Yidem, Khandro practices, and the many years that this path takes, OR parsing the YL into blocks that don't quite fit with the blocks of the non traditional retreats / SMS training of ChNNR, and then practicing the Yeshe Lama blocks within the context of ChNNR's Teachings and practices.

Hmmmmn - That's a mouth full and both paths are really not doable for most people. If so, what was the benefit from attending this YL seminar with K Yeshe?

I'm left with, "Nah - Where's the beef?" What is the useful take away? Maybe the take away is that there is no take away and that is OK? Oh come on. For this I gave 8 hours of my life and / or paid 200 Euros? I am an old guy. I don't need any more shock and awe in my life. I want useful, understandable, practical paradigms, and practices that harmonize and pacify the elements of my life.

All of this is really unfortunate as it applies to the Yeshe Lama, because the YL is a guided path to enlightenment in one life time. I really believe this. You do the practices and you get the result.

So maybe the challenge to K Yeshe, or to the "evolution" of Dharma, is to take a guide such as the Yeshe Lama, or the collected works of ChNNR, and turn them into small size, self paced, multi-media, learning modules, linked to on-line lineage holders, and doable on home computers and "mobile devices." Maybe this would make Dharma applicable to the fast pace, text while doing anything, 10 second attention span, pace of modern life. This is doable, through crowd sourcing, and crowd financing - today. This is not something that I want to do, but maybe some investment banker, or wealthy individual, reading this, will plunk down the spare million and get it done.

I think I am more interested in figuring out how can you reach the "me" generation and teach them kindness. Anyone have any ideas?

Please everyone remember to send hugs to K Yeshe.

ob :heart:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby MalaBeads » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:48 pm

I think I am more interested in figuring out how can you reach the "me" generation and teach them kindness. Anyone have any ideas?


OB,

Perhaps you should teach Mahayana. Be the change you want to see in the world.

As far as what KY taught today, i heard several things that i can begin to put into practice, to bring to fruition. He said enough that was practical, that will carry me for a long time to come. And for this i am grateful. His personal "style" is irrelevant to me.

I could chittle and chattle on some more but there is no point in doing so. Everyone will hear from todays teachings what they are able to hear based on their previous experience, on their frame of reference.

If i were to offer anything here, it would be to remind people of something that ChNN has been saying alot lately, that dzogchen is not a tradition. Of course people organize and codify the teachings they hear, they write books, etc., this is one of the things that people do, but when you get right down to it, dzogchen cannot be organized or codified in any way whatsoever. This is why the way KY lives his life, the way he teaches, makes his living, etc. etc. etc. is irrelevant to me. It is a subtle but important point i think. At least for me. Lol.

Ciao.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Yudron » Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:39 pm

Wow Old Bob--one day I get the impression you think KY is a hero liberating Dzogchen from the evil “Dharma Police” and the next day he is a demon selling Dzogchen to the highest bidder. May I humbly suggest that both are just concepts?

My own conceptual dualistic mind wants to interject something here, for better or worse. However the DC lamas present Dzogchen is between them and their students. The larger Nyingma world is going right on following lamas who have chosen to pass down the Dzogrim and Dzogchen with samaya to not chatter about it in public. Very serious samayas, taken with a lady with one sharp tooth as a witness. Somewhere in the transmission between Adzom Drupka—who was very strict about such things—and KY, some lineage holder decided not to pass on this samaya to his disciples. That is a lama’s decision, and I have no opinion about it. However, in case some of you are not in contact with traditional Nyingma lamas, I just want to chime in here and let you know that there is a big wide world of both the monastic and the yogi tradition who are carrying on keeping the Heart Essence in their hearts, not on the internet or in the town square. That is the gold standard.

Please consider this when you make posts about rushen and thogal here, it looks really weird to folks outside the context of the DC and Bon.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:34 pm

Well, it is April 1, so who knows what's going on?
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sherlock » Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:45 pm

Yudron wrote: Very serious samayas, taken with a lady with one sharp tooth as a witness. Somewhere in the transmission between Adzom Drupka—who was very strict about such things—and KY, some lineage holder decided not to pass on this samaya to his disciples. That is a lama’s decision, and I have no opinion about it. However, in case some of you are not in contact with traditional Nyingma lamas, I just want to chime in here and let you know that there is a big wide world of both the monastic and the yogi tradition who are carrying on keeping the Heart Essence in their hearts, not on the internet or in the town square. That is the gold standard.

Please consider this when you make posts about rushen and thogal here, it looks really weird to folks outside the context of the DC and Bon.


ChNN emphasizes secrecy especially in his longde and upadesha teachings, he respects the samaya very well. Some other times he doesn't say it as much during the retreat, but it is definitely in his writings. Some of us disciples unfortunately don't know any better though, but I don't think there has been any specifics of rushen and thogal techniques posted here.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:44 pm

Yudron wrote:Wow Old Bob--one day I get the impression you think KY is a hero liberating Dzogchen from the evil “Dharma Police” and the next day he is a demon selling Dzogchen to the highest bidder. May I humbly suggest that both are just concepts?

My own conceptual dualistic mind wants to interject something here, for better or worse. However the DC lamas present Dzogchen is between them and their students. The larger Nyingma world is going right on following lamas who have chosen to pass down the Dzogrim and Dzogchen with samaya to not chatter about it in public. Very serious samayas, taken with a lady with one sharp tooth as a witness. Somewhere in the transmission between Adzom Drupka—who was very strict about such things—and KY, some lineage holder decided not to pass on this samaya to his disciples. That is a lama’s decision, and I have no opinion about it. However, in case some of you are not in contact with traditional Nyingma lamas, I just want to chime in here and let you know that there is a big wide world of both the monastic and the yogi tradition who are carrying on keeping the Heart Essence in their hearts, not on the internet or in the town square. That is the gold standard.

Please consider this when you make posts about rushen and thogal here, it looks really weird to folks outside the context of the DC and Bon.


Hi Yudron,

May I humbly suggest that your characterizations about what your impressions were about what I was writing or thinking about K Yeshe have nothing to do with what I wrote or intended and are 100 % your own projections. Sorry dear - not guilty of that one. But I do agree with you that all judgements are just concepts.

Best, ob
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