How they choose the Dalai Lama?

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someone235
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How they choose the Dalai Lama?

Post by someone235 »

Hey,
Can someone please describe to me what is the exact process in which the Tibetans choose the Dalai Lama?
I understood that when they want to test a boy, they give him some objects, and if he picks the deceased Dalai Lama's objects, it means that he's the reincarnation of him. You know how many objects are shown to him? You know how many corrects answers he has to has if he want to "pass" the test?
Thanks in advance
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byamspa
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Re: How they choose the Dalai Lama?

Post by byamspa »

someone235 wrote:Hey,
Can someone please describe to me what is the exact process in which the Tibetans choose the Dalai Lama?
I understood that when they want to test a boy, they give him some objects, and if he picks the deceased Dalai Lama's objects, it means that he's the reincarnation of him. You know how many objects are shown to him? You know how many corrects answers he has to has if he want to "pass" the test?
Thanks in advance
Needing help with your homework, eh?
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Re: How they choose the Dalai Lama?

Post by Namgyal »

State Religious Affairs Bureau Order No.5.'...an important move to institutionalize management on reincarnation of living Buddhas. The selection of reincarnates must preserve national unity and solidarity of all ethnic groups and the selection process cannot be influenced by any group or individual from outside the country...' :crazy:
http://www.dalailama.com/news/post/753- ... ncarnation
Last edited by Namgyal on Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
someone235
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Re: How they choose the Dalai Lama?

Post by someone235 »

byamspa wrote:
someone235 wrote:Hey,
Can someone please describe to me what is the exact process in which the Tibetans choose the Dalai Lama?
I understood that when they want to test a boy, they give him some objects, and if he picks the deceased Dalai Lama's objects, it means that he's the reincarnation of him. You know how many objects are shown to him? You know how many corrects answers he has to has if he want to "pass" the test?
Thanks in advance
Needing help with your homework, eh?
Just curious
tingdzin
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Re: How they choose the Dalai Lama?

Post by tingdzin »

The procedure you mentioned is the one that was followed last time. Given that the Dalai Lama's influence has historically been great in parts of Asia, there have been various other methods suggested or tried, including drawing lots from a golden vase. In the distant past, there has even been controversy over whether the folks in charge got the right one. For details, there are plenty of sources in English that you could track down and read.
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Grigoris
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Re: How they choose the Dalai Lama?

Post by Grigoris »

Glenn Mullin "The Fourteen Dalai Lamas" would be a good starting point.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: How they choose the Dalai Lama?

Post by Caz »

Namgyal wrote:State Religious Affairs Bureau Order No.5.'...an important move to institutionalize management on reincarnation of living Buddhas. The selection of reincarnates must preserve national unity and solidarity of all ethnic groups and the selection process cannot be influenced by any group or individual from outside the country...' :crazy:
http://www.dalailama.com/news/post/753- ... ncarnation
That sounds like political abuse of the Tulku system.
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

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kirtu
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Re: How they choose the Dalai Lama?

Post by kirtu »

Caz wrote:
Namgyal wrote:State Religious Affairs Bureau Order No.5.'...an important move to institutionalize management on reincarnation of living Buddhas. The selection of reincarnates must preserve national unity and solidarity of all ethnic groups and the selection process cannot be influenced by any group or individual from outside the country...' :crazy:
http://www.dalailama.com/news/post/753- ... ncarnation
That sounds like political abuse of the Tulku system.
Quite right. The PRC is officially going to try to regulate tulku recognition in China.

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Caz
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Re: How they choose the Dalai Lama?

Post by Caz »

kirtu wrote:
Caz wrote:
Namgyal wrote:State Religious Affairs Bureau Order No.5.'...an important move to institutionalize management on reincarnation of living Buddhas. The selection of reincarnates must preserve national unity and solidarity of all ethnic groups and the selection process cannot be influenced by any group or individual from outside the country...' :crazy:
http://www.dalailama.com/news/post/753- ... ncarnation
That sounds like political abuse of the Tulku system.
Quite right. The PRC is officially going to try to regulate tulku recognition in China.

Kirt
Very sad, Better to abandon recognition as a public affair and keep it as a very private one. Let the quality of a Dharma teacher speak through their actions.
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Grigoris
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Re: How they choose the Dalai Lama?

Post by Grigoris »

It's a little difficult to make the choice for the figurehead of an entire nation a casual affair conducted over tea and biscuits.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Caz
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Re: How they choose the Dalai Lama?

Post by Caz »

gregkavarnos wrote:It's a little difficult to make the choice for the figurehead of an entire nation a casual affair conducted over tea and biscuits.
True, But do you think it would be better of for Dharma in the long run if it was separated from such worldly concerns ? Hand the politics to the Sikyong !
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Grigoris
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Re: How they choose the Dalai Lama?

Post by Grigoris »

You know very well that the Dalai Lama has handed a large proportion of his political power over to the government in exile and has publicly stated that he will not be incarnating again (ie the political and religious office of the Dalai Lama will end). But this is kind of irrelevant because it is impossible to seperate religion from politics mainly because religious institutions have an influence over the public/social sphere and thus (defacto) influence the political sphere. Of course one can reduce DIRECT involvement in politics but one cannot erase the effect of religious institutions on politics.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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conebeckham
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Re: How they choose the Dalai Lama?

Post by conebeckham »

It's a fantasy to think politics can be separated from any social situation, including religious institutions.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
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དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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conebeckham
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Re: How they choose the Dalai Lama?

Post by conebeckham »

...and it's not definitively stated by HHDL that he won't reappear in some form...as far as I know. He said he wouldn't come back in China, though...that, I believe, is definitive.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Namgyal
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Re: How they choose the Dalai Lama?

Post by Namgyal »

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Re: How they choose the Dalai Lama?

Post by practitioner »

conebeckham wrote:...and it's not definitively stated by HHDL that he won't reappear in some form...as far as I know. He said he wouldn't come back in China, though...that, I believe, is definitive.
Yes, he said he would not reincarnate in The PRC borders (Tibet included) NOT that he wouldn't reincarnate or the Dalai Lama line will end with himself. Whatever happens though I am positive that he will continue to selflessly guide wandering beings to liberation no matter what means necessary.
One should do nothing other than benefit sentient beings either directly or indirectly - Shantideva
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Re: How they choose the Dalai Lama?

Post by justsit »

He also said he could reincarnate as a (gasp) woman:

"Female Dalai Lama (is) possible because in Tibet tradition, among the high women, reincarnation is there, I think there is the 700-800-year-old Dorjee Phagmo institution which is for female reincarnation...so, there is no religious connotation that religious leader must be male.

"If circumstances are such that female reincarnation is more effective to people, then, logically it should be female," he said.

Queried if he would one day take the form of a woman reincarnation, he replied: "I personally don't know."

In the same interview, he said he would reincarnate "in a free country."
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Grigoris
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Re: How they choose the Dalai Lama?

Post by Grigoris »

conebeckham wrote:...and it's not definitively stated by HHDL that he won't reappear in some form...as far as I know.
Maybe I misinterpreted his statements. Please excuse my slip.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: How they choose the Dalai Lama?

Post by michaelb »

I don't think you were that wrong, Greg. HH Dalai Lama has said he may be the last Dalai Lama, if the majority of Tibetans think the position has no relevance. His Holiness may be the last one. I pray he will be with us for many many more years to come and never leave us.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18568717
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