Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

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Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby pemachophel » Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:34 am

I've seen a couple of different renderings in English of the line that goes:

DEM-CHOG DOD-PAI GYAL-PO DE-CHEN-TER

Does this line refer only to Chakrasamvara and His attributes, i.e., "King of Desire, Treasure of Great Bliss," or does it enumerate Chakrasamvara, Takkiraja, and another Deity named Treasure of Great Bliss? If it's the latter, does anyone know Who the Treasure of Great Bliss is? A quick Google search turned up nothing.

Thanks.

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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby pemachophel » Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:44 pm

Oops, sorry, I didn't mean the Tashi Tsikpa, I meant Mipham's Wang-du prayer that begins "DE-CHEN BAR-WA..." My bad. Another senior moment brought to you by birth, old age, sickness, and death.

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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby conebeckham » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:40 pm

I think I've seen the prayer you're referring to--The Wangdu prayer--but I'm not familiar with it. Any links?

That first line, in your first post, "De Chok Dod Pai"...etc., is likely just a descriptive phrase for Cakrasamvara or any other deity associated with bliss--Yangdak Heruka, for instance.

"DeChen BarWa" means "blazing great bliss," and could be an epithet of a deity, or a more general term. I seem to recall the Wangdu prayer had associations with the Lotus family.....?? Maybe it refers to Hayagriva?
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby pemachophel » Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:56 pm

Thanks Cone. That's the way I read it too. However, one of my Teachers translates it as a series of three proper names. So it seems there are different readings of this line. Iasked this Teacher about this line once before, but I'll bring it up again, citing your esteemed opinion, of course. :bow:

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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby conebeckham » Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:49 pm

Ha Ha.....anything but "esteemed." A shot in the dark, more like...

This reminds me, though, of the short prayer of Chogyur Lingpa's --"Du Sum Sangye Guru Rinpoche, Ngro Drup Kun dak Dewachenpo Shab..." etc.
I'd been reciting it for years, thinking the first three lines all referred directly to Guru Rinpoche, qualities, etc......until someone pointed out that the second line referred to a form known as "Dewachenpo" and the third line referred to a form known as "Guru Totreng Tsel" or Guru Drakpo Tsel. In a sense, of course, they're the same, but they're also iconographically distinct, and with various practices, etc. associated.
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby heart » Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:02 pm

conebeckham wrote:Ha Ha.....anything but "esteemed." A shot in the dark, more like...

This reminds me, though, of the short prayer of Chogyur Lingpa's --"Du Sum Sangye Guru Rinpoche, Ngro Drup Kun dak Dewachenpo Shab..." etc.
I'd been reciting it for years, thinking the first three lines all referred directly to Guru Rinpoche, qualities, etc......until someone pointed out that the second line referred to a form known as "Dewachenpo" and the third line referred to a form known as "Guru Totreng Tsel" or Guru Drakpo Tsel. In a sense, of course, they're the same, but they're also iconographically distinct, and with various practices, etc. associated.


It actually refers to the outer, inner and secret guru sadhanas in Chokling Tersar, outer barche kunsel (nagsi shilnon), inner sampa lundrup (dewa chenpo), secret ‘Düd Dul Drakpo Tsal’ (it is on the outside of light of wisdom volume 4).

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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby conebeckham » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:25 pm

See, there you go!!
:smile:

Proof that Pemachopel may be on to something regarding specific levels of practice, etc., and not merely more descriptive language about one practice.
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby T. Chokyi » Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:31 pm

pemachophel wrote:I've seen a couple of different renderings in English of the line that goes:

DEM-CHOG DOD-PAI GYAL-PO DE-CHEN-TER

Does this line refer only to Chakrasamvara and His attributes, i.e., "King of Desire, Treasure of Great Bliss," or does it enumerate Chakrasamvara, Takkiraja, and another Deity named Treasure of Great Bliss? If it's the latter, does anyone know Who the Treasure of Great Bliss is? A quick Google search turned up nothing.

Thanks.

:namaste:



http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Wangd%C3%BC

one on the bottom right

I see why you asked ....but it also says

The central deity is Pema Gyalpo portrayed in Sambhogakaya form.

then: http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Pema_Gyalpo

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... -blessings

བདེ་མཆོག་འདོད་པའི་རྒྱལ་པོ་བདེ་ཆེན་གཏེར། །
demchok döpé gyalpo dechen ter
Döpe Gyalpo, King of Desire, ecstasy supreme, source of the wisdom of great bliss

yep, there are "layers"....for sure.
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby pemachophel » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:08 pm

T. Chokyi,

Thanks. Your answer appears to be definitive. However, in the translation from the Lotsawa website, they seem to have not translated DEM-CHOG in the line I was referring to, nor is DEM-CHOG in the Jigphun thangka. Any explanation for that? Is DEM-CHOG an epithet for Takkiraja (Dod-pai Gyal-po)?

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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby conebeckham » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:19 pm

"De chok" or "demchok" could be translated as Supreme Ecstasy.

I'd like to know more about this Dodpai Gyalpo, myself. Is this a lesser-known yidam?
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby T. Chokyi » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:48 pm

pemachophel wrote:T. Chokyi,

Thanks. Your answer appears to be definitive. However, in the translation from the Lotsawa website, they seem to have not translated DEM-CHOG in the line I was referring to, nor is DEM-CHOG in the Jigphun thangka. Any explanation for that? Is DEM-CHOG an epithet for Takkiraja (Dod-pai Gyal-po)?

:namaste:


You're welcome, it isn't 100 percent definitive, just my "take" from my own observation, here is why I think this way. Demchog by itself is usually interpreted Chakrasamvara, this is why one just kind of goes toward Demchog being this deity, I do that too, but when one looks a little harder at the context of that sentence in the prayer, one has to go with the context of that sentence, also in the painting on the lower right we have a deity who is by that very name, so Demchok there refers to him. If you look in the painting one sees that the form in the picture on the lower right, is red and has one hand (right hand up) with what appears to be the hook for desire, and Mipham Rinpoche in the structure of that sentence is saying desire, as in Takkiraja, King of Desire, also the deity has what appears to be the the noose. If you look here:
http://imageserver.himalayanart.org/fif=fpx/3313721.fpx&obj=uv,1.0&page=image.html&rect=0,0,1,1&hei=900
and you read here:
http://www.himalayanart.org/image.cfm/3313721.html

Takkiraja, in a solitary form (Tibetan: du pai gyal po. English: the King of Desire) a power deity arising from the Guhyasamaja cycle of Tantras, looks exactly like this and not like "Khorlo Demchog".

He is related also with Kurukulla, and in the painting I gave the link for originally, you can see her to the left on the painting on the left opposite this figure you are asking about.

These are related, they are part of the 13 Golden Dharmas: http://www.himalayanart.org/search/set.cfm?setID=925

Khorlo Demchok translates Chakrasamvara but just Demchog in that sentence I think applies to Dod-pai Gyal-po.
I think thats why they didn't translate it "Chakrasamvara" and Dodpa Gyalpo as two seperate entities.

You would still want to confirm with your teacher, and ask the difference between Khorlo Demchog and Demchok Dodpai Gyalpo as seen in that thangkha in that right hand corner (position).
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby pemachophel » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:48 pm

T. Chokyi,

Yours was my original interpretation. But then one of my Teachers said Dem-chog is Chakrasamvara in this prayer. I said Dem-chog is a Sarma Deity and this is a Nyingma prayer. He said Chakrasamvara is not just a Sarma Deity, but then He didn't elaborate further and I didn't want to press the issue in front of other students. Interestingly, this Lama started His career as a Kagyudpa. So He may have been predisposed to interpret Dem-chog this way. In any case, I will revisit this with Him by way of sharing the URLs you so generously posted. I also asked Him about Vajra Dharma/Dorje Cho and He said this was just another name for Amitabha. Again I couldn't really agree. Perhaps a form of Amitabha, but not simply Amitabha per se.

Thanks again.

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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby pemachophel » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:00 pm

Magnus,

Do you know is there's a picture on-line of the three levels of Dusum Sangay? Light of Wisdom Vol. 4 that you mention simply has a picture of Amitabha on the front. At least that what I found at the several book-selling sites my search brought up. A search for Duddul Drakpo Tsal didn't bring up any pics other than the standard seated Guru Rinpoche or Nang-sid Zil-non. Isn't Duddul Drakpo Tsal standing and haloed by flames?

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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby conebeckham » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:12 pm

Interesting questions abound, indeed!

There is at least one Terma tradition of Chakrasamvara, I believe....I also think the "Pema Benzra" terma of Yongay Mingyur Dorje relates to Chakrasamvara.

Then, Vajradharma is associated (pretty uniquely, I think) with Sakya Naro Khachoma, so there's a link with Takkiraja-as-one-of-the-13-Sakya-Golden-Dharmas.


Here's a Sampa Lhundrupma image, from Rigpa's Zam Store:
Image

Guru Dewachenpo is immediately above the head of Guru Rinpoche, but I don't know what the specific form of GR seen here is known by.....
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby heart » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:43 pm

pemachophel wrote:Magnus,

Do you know is there's a picture on-line of the three levels of Dusum Sangay? Light of Wisdom Vol. 4 that you mention simply has a picture of Amitabha on the front. At least that what I found at the several book-selling sites my search brought up. A search for Duddul Drakpo Tsal didn't bring up any pics other than the standard seated Guru Rinpoche or Nang-sid Zil-non. Isn't Duddul Drakpo Tsal standing and haloed by flames?

:namaste:


My copy of Light of Visdom volume 4 (The Dzogchen part) has Duddul Drakpo Tsal, looking more or less like Guru Drakpo (lots of flames), on the front. I never seen a thangka for the three levels of Guru sadhana in the Chokling Tersar but there might be one for sure. There is a short commentary on Dusum Sangye by Dudjom Rinpoche that is very nice.

/magnus
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby heart » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:47 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Guru Dewachenpo is immediately above the head of Guru Rinpoche, but I don't know what the specific form of GR seen here is known by.....


In the sadhana he is described as chemchog heruka. If my understanding is correct Guru Dewa Chenpo is the main deity, he is above the chemchog heruka padmasambhava.

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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby conebeckham » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:32 pm

In the book "Guru RInpoche: His Life and Times," you'll find an appendix that consists of Jamgon Kongtrul's instructions for visualized frameworks to be used for the "Prayer in 7 chapters." The first of those prayers, "To the Three Kayas," has a visualization with Guru Rinpoche seated, and two-armed Chenrezig above his head, if I recall correctly, and above that is a blue deity who is (I think) NOT Kuntuzangpo/zangmo, but another blue form....I recall seeing an image, or images, for each of the visualizations but I can't seem to find it now, and I don't have the book in front of me.

The link to the Lotsawa page for Wangdu can also take you to the "Prayer in Seven Chapters," and to a different, much simpler, visualization framework composed by Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo. I use Kongtrul's framework, when reciting some of those prayers on a daily basis.

So it seems there are multiple ways of depicting the 3 kayas.
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby conebeckham » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:36 pm

Here's the link to the "Prayer in Seven Chapters"

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/topics/leu-dunma/
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby T. Chokyi » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:58 pm

pemachophel wrote:T. Chokyi,

Yours was my original interpretation. But then one of my Teachers said Dem-chog is Chakrasamvara in this prayer. I said Dem-chog is a Sarma Deity and this is a Nyingma prayer. He said Chakrasamvara is not just a Sarma Deity, but then He didn't elaborate further and I didn't want to press the issue in front of other students. Interestingly, this Lama started His career as a Kagyudpa. So He may have been predisposed to interpret Dem-chog this way. In any case, I will revisit this with Him by way of sharing the URLs you so generously posted. I also asked Him about Vajra Dharma/Dorje Cho and He said this was just another name for Amitabha. Again I couldn't really agree. Perhaps a form of Amitabha, but not simply Amitabha per se.

Thanks again.

:namaste:


Well, there is more, I had more time to study, so here is something more to take into consideration,
there maybe "interpretations" of this, the translations differ:

http://nalandatranslation.org/offerings/notes-on-the-daily-chants/commentaries/great-clouds-of-blessings-supplication-for-magnetizing-the-phenomenal-world/

Viewed as a PDF file: http://nalandatranslation.org/media/Notes-to-Magnetzing-Supplication.pdf

"The supplication is quite simple in its structure: first we establish a magnetizing palace, with lotus-sun seats, for the nine main deities of the magnetizing padma family to blissfully reside in. The main deities are dharmakaya buddhas Amitabha and Vajradharma, and the nirmanakayas Avalokiteshvara and Padmaraja, one of the eight aspects of Padmasambhava. These are joined by the sambhogakaya yidams and dakinis, Hayagriva, Secret Wisdom, Vajravarahi, King of Desire, and Kurukulla. (See the line drawing and chart for identification of these deities.)"

Just a few more notes:

Mahadeva at himalayanart site:
http://www.himalayanart.org/image.cfm/65842.html

Additional link Mahadeva yab/yum:
http://www.himalayanart.org/image.cfm/618.html

Some other translations of this prayer:
On Venerable Lama Drimed Rinpoche's website
http://www.dechenrang.org/download/prayer_magnetizes.pdf

DEN CHOG DOD PAY GYAL PO DE CHEN TER
Chakrasamvara, Döpé Gyalpo (King of Desire), and Mahadeva,


Rigpa translations has it without Chakrasamvara,
"Dope Gyalpo, King of Desire, ecstasy supreme, source of the wisdom
of great bliss" This is the site given previously with the Wang Du Thangkha.

"Ju Mipham Rinpoche stated, “What’s most important for those who conduct benefitting activities
is to have genuine experience in spontaneous accomplishment of their mind from the pith
instruction. This, however, will not occur if there was the slightest self-benefitting intention. If
one has perfect aspiration to benefit others, then the enlightened activity of Magnetism would be
the most supreme amongst others.
Without the skillful method to spontaneously accomplish one’s mind, ordinary beings would
hardly succeed with their own effort. The skillful method herein is to pray to the Nine Principle
Deities of the Magnetizing Activities by reciting the Nine-Deity mantra and their holy names
.
The Principle Deities of the Magnetizing Activities are the manifestation of the pristine awareness of
discernment, through which practitioners meditate on to attain the union of bliss and emptiness."
Lama Drimed

http://dkhandro.blogspot.com/2011/05/pr ... -that.html

The Nine Deities Mantra at the bottom

This is a job for superman :cheers:
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby pemachophel » Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:05 am

Oh boy, just when I thought I had this figured out!

What seems clear to me is that there are nine Deities pictured in both the thangka and line drawing, and there is a "nine Deity mantra" at the end of one of the transmations. I see no image of Chakrasamvara in either picture. In the discussion of the nine Deity mantra, the author lists 11 Deities, not nine, including Chakrasamvara and both Takkiraja (under the name Dodpai Gyalpo) and Mahadeva. Personally, I don't think Chakrasamvara is meant here by De(m)-chog. However, I am of two minds as to whether Dodpai Gyalpo is Takkiraja or Mahadeva. The name suggests Takkiraja but the pictures seem to show Mahadeva. I do not think both are intended.

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