Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

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pemachophel
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Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby pemachophel » Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:34 am

I've seen a couple of different renderings in English of the line that goes:

DEM-CHOG DOD-PAI GYAL-PO DE-CHEN-TER

Does this line refer only to Chakrasamvara and His attributes, i.e., "King of Desire, Treasure of Great Bliss," or does it enumerate Chakrasamvara, Takkiraja, and another Deity named Treasure of Great Bliss? If it's the latter, does anyone know Who the Treasure of Great Bliss is? A quick Google search turned up nothing.

Thanks.

:namaste:
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby pemachophel » Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:44 pm

Oops, sorry, I didn't mean the Tashi Tsikpa, I meant Mipham's Wang-du prayer that begins "DE-CHEN BAR-WA..." My bad. Another senior moment brought to you by birth, old age, sickness, and death.

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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby conebeckham » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:40 pm

I think I've seen the prayer you're referring to--The Wangdu prayer--but I'm not familiar with it. Any links?

That first line, in your first post, "De Chok Dod Pai"...etc., is likely just a descriptive phrase for Cakrasamvara or any other deity associated with bliss--Yangdak Heruka, for instance.

"DeChen BarWa" means "blazing great bliss," and could be an epithet of a deity, or a more general term. I seem to recall the Wangdu prayer had associations with the Lotus family.....?? Maybe it refers to Hayagriva?


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby pemachophel » Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:56 pm

Thanks Cone. That's the way I read it too. However, one of my Teachers translates it as a series of three proper names. So it seems there are different readings of this line. Iasked this Teacher about this line once before, but I'll bring it up again, citing your esteemed opinion, of course. :bow:

:namaste:
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby conebeckham » Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:49 pm

Ha Ha.....anything but "esteemed." A shot in the dark, more like...

This reminds me, though, of the short prayer of Chogyur Lingpa's --"Du Sum Sangye Guru Rinpoche, Ngro Drup Kun dak Dewachenpo Shab..." etc.
I'd been reciting it for years, thinking the first three lines all referred directly to Guru Rinpoche, qualities, etc......until someone pointed out that the second line referred to a form known as "Dewachenpo" and the third line referred to a form known as "Guru Totreng Tsel" or Guru Drakpo Tsel. In a sense, of course, they're the same, but they're also iconographically distinct, and with various practices, etc. associated.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby heart » Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:02 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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conebeckham
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby conebeckham » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:25 pm

See, there you go!!
:smile:

Proof that Pemachopel may be on to something regarding specific levels of practice, etc., and not merely more descriptive language about one practice.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby T. Chokyi » Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:31 pm


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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby pemachophel » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:08 pm

T. Chokyi,

Thanks. Your answer appears to be definitive. However, in the translation from the Lotsawa website, they seem to have not translated DEM-CHOG in the line I was referring to, nor is DEM-CHOG in the Jigphun thangka. Any explanation for that? Is DEM-CHOG an epithet for Takkiraja (Dod-pai Gyal-po)?

:namaste:
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby conebeckham » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:19 pm

"De chok" or "demchok" could be translated as Supreme Ecstasy.

I'd like to know more about this Dodpai Gyalpo, myself. Is this a lesser-known yidam?


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

T. Chokyi
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby T. Chokyi » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:48 pm


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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby pemachophel » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:48 pm

T. Chokyi,

Yours was my original interpretation. But then one of my Teachers said Dem-chog is Chakrasamvara in this prayer. I said Dem-chog is a Sarma Deity and this is a Nyingma prayer. He said Chakrasamvara is not just a Sarma Deity, but then He didn't elaborate further and I didn't want to press the issue in front of other students. Interestingly, this Lama started His career as a Kagyudpa. So He may have been predisposed to interpret Dem-chog this way. In any case, I will revisit this with Him by way of sharing the URLs you so generously posted. I also asked Him about Vajra Dharma/Dorje Cho and He said this was just another name for Amitabha. Again I couldn't really agree. Perhaps a form of Amitabha, but not simply Amitabha per se.

Thanks again.

:namaste:
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby pemachophel » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:00 pm

Magnus,

Do you know is there's a picture on-line of the three levels of Dusum Sangay? Light of Wisdom Vol. 4 that you mention simply has a picture of Amitabha on the front. At least that what I found at the several book-selling sites my search brought up. A search for Duddul Drakpo Tsal didn't bring up any pics other than the standard seated Guru Rinpoche or Nang-sid Zil-non. Isn't Duddul Drakpo Tsal standing and haloed by flames?

:namaste:
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby conebeckham » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:12 pm

Interesting questions abound, indeed!

There is at least one Terma tradition of Chakrasamvara, I believe....I also think the "Pema Benzra" terma of Yongay Mingyur Dorje relates to Chakrasamvara.

Then, Vajradharma is associated (pretty uniquely, I think) with Sakya Naro Khachoma, so there's a link with Takkiraja-as-one-of-the-13-Sakya-Golden-Dharmas.


Here's a Sampa Lhundrupma image, from Rigpa's Zam Store:
Image

Guru Dewachenpo is immediately above the head of Guru Rinpoche, but I don't know what the specific form of GR seen here is known by.....


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby heart » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:43 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby heart » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:47 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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conebeckham
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby conebeckham » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:32 pm

In the book "Guru RInpoche: His Life and Times," you'll find an appendix that consists of Jamgon Kongtrul's instructions for visualized frameworks to be used for the "Prayer in 7 chapters." The first of those prayers, "To the Three Kayas," has a visualization with Guru Rinpoche seated, and two-armed Chenrezig above his head, if I recall correctly, and above that is a blue deity who is (I think) NOT Kuntuzangpo/zangmo, but another blue form....I recall seeing an image, or images, for each of the visualizations but I can't seem to find it now, and I don't have the book in front of me.

The link to the Lotsawa page for Wangdu can also take you to the "Prayer in Seven Chapters," and to a different, much simpler, visualization framework composed by Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo. I use Kongtrul's framework, when reciting some of those prayers on a daily basis.

So it seems there are multiple ways of depicting the 3 kayas.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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conebeckham
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby conebeckham » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:36 pm

Here's the link to the "Prayer in Seven Chapters"



"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

T. Chokyi
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby T. Chokyi » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:58 pm


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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Postby pemachophel » Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:05 am

Oh boy, just when I thought I had this figured out!

What seems clear to me is that there are nine Deities pictured in both the thangka and line drawing, and there is a "nine Deity mantra" at the end of one of the transmations. I see no image of Chakrasamvara in either picture. In the discussion of the nine Deity mantra, the author lists 11 Deities, not nine, including Chakrasamvara and both Takkiraja (under the name Dodpai Gyalpo) and Mahadeva. Personally, I don't think Chakrasamvara is meant here by De(m)-chog. However, I am of two minds as to whether Dodpai Gyalpo is Takkiraja or Mahadeva. The name suggests Takkiraja but the pictures seem to show Mahadeva. I do not think both are intended.

:namaste:
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ


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