Meditation on Love will not break you out of Samsara

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Re: Meditation on Love will not break you out of Samsara

Postby Nosta » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:27 pm

purestsoul wrote:Meditation on Love will not break you out of Samsara.

The highest realms in all of universe are the immaterial realms where the focus of meditation is no nothingness and infinity of consciousness.

When one is attached to the meditation on love, then the highest realms which one can ascend are the realms of form.

Because one is still attached to sensual desires.

To get out of the cycle of samsara of rebirth and death, one has to eliminate all traces of emotions from one being, no love no hate no thoughts absolutely nothingness.

For that is how one can achieve the infinity of consciousness.



How do you know for sure that meditation on love will not break you out from samsara?
Meditation on love is just a "tool" to achieve liberation, not the ultimate tool possibly.

Many masters advise to meditate on love.
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Re: Meditation on Love will not break you out of Samsara

Postby purestsoul » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:57 pm

The realms of existence are customarily divided into three distinct "worlds" (loka), listed here in descending order of refinement:

The Immaterial World (arupa-loka). Consists of four realms that are accessible to those who pass away while meditating in the formless jhanas.

The Fine-Material World (rupa-loka). Consists of sixteen realms whose inhabitants (the devas) experience extremely refined degrees of mental pleasure. These realms are accessible to those who have attained at least some level of jhana and who have thereby managed to (temporarily) suppress hatred and ill-will. They are said to possess extremely refined bodies of pure light. The highest of these realms, the Pure Abodes, are accessible only to those who have attained to "non-returning," the third stage of Awakening. The Fine-Material World and the Immaterial World together constitute the "heavens" (sagga).

The Sensuous World (kama-loka). Consists of eleven realms in which experience — both pleasurable and not — is dominated by the five senses. Seven of these realms are favorable destinations, and include our own human realm as well as several realms occupied by devas. The lowest realms are the four "bad" destinations, which include the animal and hell realms.
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Re: Meditation on Love will not break you out of Samsara

Postby purestsoul » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:07 pm

"Further, Ananda, the monk — not attending to the perception of the dimension of nothingness, not attending to the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception — attends to the singleness based on the theme-less concentration of awareness. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its theme-less concentration of awareness.

"He discerns that 'This theme-less concentration of awareness is fabricated & mentally fashioned.' And he discerns that 'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to cessation.' For him — thus knowing, thus seeing — the mind is released from the effluent of sensuality, the effluent of becoming, the effluent of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

"He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the effluent of sensuality... the effluent of becoming... the effluent of ignorance, are not present. And there is only this modicum of disturbance: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the effluent of sensuality... becoming... ignorance. And there is just this non-emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, pure — superior & unsurpassed.

"Ananda, whatever contemplatives and brahmans who in the past entered & remained in an emptiness that was pure, superior, & unsurpassed, they all entered & remained in this very same emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed. Whatever contemplatives and brahmans who in the future will enter & remain in an emptiness that will be pure, superior, & unsurpassed, they all will enter & remain in this very same emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed. Whatever contemplatives and brahmans who at present enter & remain in an emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed, they all enter & remain in this very same emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed.

"Therefore, Ananda, you should train yourselves: 'We will enter & remain in the emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed.'"
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Re: Meditation on Love will not break you out of Samsara

Postby purestsoul » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:17 pm

The second subdivision explains in detail the nature
without action; it has three parts. First of all there are
the four achievements, then there are the three capacities
of understanding, and finally there is the decision
without action, which has five points.

The Four Achievements. These are:
1. To be able to do the opposite of what one thinks
is the right action.
2. When one has achieved this capacity of acting
without any concept of good or bad, it does not
matter if one is criticised or not; everything is
equal.

3. The person who has achieved this capacity is
never involved in actions or thoughts.
4. If one who has achieved this capacity is criticised,
that person does not modify his or her
view. One is not deluded by others.

(24 If you do not fully understand the natural state, then all
practices, such as reciting mantras, etc., are seen as effort.
But when you fully understand that state then none of
these actions are important any longer. Thus you are able
to do things in the opposite way. A similar point was made
by Longchenpa {klong chen rab 'byams pa): "When you
don't understand the natural state you must try to accumulate
merits and practise bodhicitta and confession, etc."


But the opposition spoken of here is not opposition in
the sense of adopting the views of the heretic schools or even
that of an opponent. It means that once one is continuously
in the natural state one is not deluded—so whether one
recites, or practises visualisation or whatever it does not
matter. It is like being in space. Whether you paint black or
white on space it leaves no trace.


When you first begin to hear these teachings this can be
misleading, as it is valid only for the person who can
remain undisturbed and not distracted in the natural state.
Such freedom is the result.)
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Re: Meditation on Love will not break you out of Samsara

Postby purestsoul » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:20 pm

These are the four achievements of the person who has
achieved the natural state.

The Three Capacities of Understanding. These are:

1. Of course the practitioners who have achieved
this capacity will have clairvoyance. But they do
not care for these signs even if the Dharmakaya
appears very brightly in front of them. They
have fully understood that everything is part of
their nature, so they are neither happy nor sad
to see this. That is the first sign that no one can
remove the practitioner from his or her nature.

2. Of course even if sickness and miseries come, the
practitioners do not care. If the King of Hell
comes and puts molten metal in their mouths, if
the demons come to take them away, they know
that these appearances are not separate from
their own nature. So no one can make the practitioner
afraid. That is the sign that he or she will
not fall down.


3. Of course practitioners can spontaneously give
many teachings without study, as the teachings
will be known spontaneously by the power of
their understanding. Thus they will have a
good reputation and so achieve power and
knowledge to conquer their critics. They do not
care—even if they see the Sambhogakaya or see
Tonpa Shenrab teaching under his umbrella—
they never change from their nature. They
know that everything is not different from their
nature. So they do not follow good or bad.
That
is the sign of the capacity of the practice—the
practitioners will never be stopped, nor will they
go back from their nature.

Practitioners have no hope to achieve nirvana nor are
they frightened to fall down to samsara.
They do not
wish to do good things.
Those practitioners who have
this capacity do not doubt any longer. But if a practitioner
is still doubtful as to whether he or she is acting in
the right way or not, or whether he or she has got the
right sign or not, then that person has not yet achieved
this capacity. He or she will continue to circulate in
samsara.
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Re: Meditation on Love will not break you out of Samsara

Postby purestsoul » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:22 pm

26 Lopon comments that when other Buddhist schools hear
these teachings they have been very upset in the past and
have said that Dzogchen is not Buddhism at all. But Dzogchen
is not like the view of Indian or Western materialist
philosophy in which the actions in the life have no ultimate
consequence because body and mind have the same
nature—the view that they are born together so it doesn't
matter whether you perform good or bad actions because
finally they both go to ashes and no trace is left.
The
natural state is not material at all—after all, as is continuously
stated in the text, where can you find it?
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Re: Meditation on Love will not break you out of Samsara

Postby purestsoul » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:28 pm

Yuanshi Tianzun (Chinese: 元始天尊; pinyin: Yúanshǐ Tīanzūn), the Celestial Venerable of the Primordial Beginning or the Primeval Lord of Heaven, is one of the highest deities of religious Taoism. He is one of the Three Pure Ones (Chinese: 三清; pinyin: Sānqīng), and is also known as the Jade Pure One (Chinese: 玉清; pinyin: Yùqīng). He resides in the Heaven of Jade Purity. It is believed that he came into being at the beginning of the universe as a result of the merging of pure breaths. He then created Heaven and Earth.

Yuanshi Tianzun is said to be without beginning and the most supreme of all beings. He is in fact, a representation of the principle of all being. From him all things arose. He is eternal, limitless, and without form.
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Re: Meditation on Love will not break you out of Samsara

Postby byamspa » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:29 pm

:popcorn:
Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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Re: Meditation on Love will not break you out of Samsara

Postby purestsoul » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:33 pm

When one is truly enlightened, there is no good or evil. There is no love or hate.

By remaining attached and fixated to Love, one will undoubtedly conjure up Hate. For Hate only arises when there is Love and Hate will never arise if there is no Love.

By remaining attached and fixated to Good, one will undoubtedly conjure up Evil. For Evil only arises when there is Good and Evil will never arise if there is no Good.

By remaining attached and fixated to the Sephiroth, one will undoubtedly conjure up Qlippoth. For Qlippoth only arises when there is Sephiroth and Qlippoth will never arise if there is no Sephiroth.

And thus lies the true nature of Non-Duality, the ending to the game of existence, the elimination of Maya.
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Re: Meditation on Love will not break you out of Samsara

Postby randomseb » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:37 pm

purestsoul wrote:When one is truly enlightened, there is no good or evil. There is no love or hate.
.


These things don't go away, they just don't hook you like they would your average person, pulling you every which way. Don't misunderstand the teachings.

:twothumbsup:
Disclaimer: If I have posted about something, then I obviously have no idea what I am talking about!
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Re: Meditation on Love will not break you out of Samsara

Postby purestsoul » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:43 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:In a Buddhist context, love, compassion, equanimity, all the paramitas, all these kinds of things are not necessarily "emotions" like they are in western psych or religion etc. I think the point of something like Tonglen or Metta or whatever is not just to make you feel good or make you nicer to others, it is to turn around your view at a deep level.

These are about one's relation to, and view of the "outside" world..the more you practice them, the more you open and the line between "inside" and "outside" fades, so not only are they important, but from a Mahayana POV they are instrumental in the realization of emptiness.

Also, trying to focus on "nothingness" to blot other stuff out is warned against really specifically in a number of texts, some of them say the conscious attempts at "nothingness" or repression/stopping of thought can lead to an animal rebirth!


If you are still fearful of being reborn in the lower realms, then you will never get out of samsara because you have not removed the karma of fear from your energetic blueprint.

The true enlightened person is not fearful of being reborn as an animal, hungry ghost or in hell because all animals, hungry ghosts and even hell itself are illusionary phenomenon conjured by the attaching mind.

In other words, everything which you see and experience around you are imprints of your karma, a manipulation of your reality by higher dimensional forces.

A quote from the Trodrel Namkhadang Nyempai
Gyu: "If anyone enters the 'Nature Without Action',
whether that being is a god or a human or
in any one of the six realms, the nature of mind
will always be purified spontaneously into natural
truth. And whoever wants to get into this nature
should not make any kind of action—only
remain in the final truth."

All the existences that belong to samsara and nirvana
are reflections that come from the natural
state. All of them will be liberated into the natural
state. Just at the moment when they are reflected
they are ready to be liberated—there is
no need to try to liberate them. Therefore decide
to enter the 'Self-Liberation'.

A quote from the tenth chapter of the text above:
"This is the automatic cutting off of the mistakes
or obscurations. From the beginning it is
beyond the views of nihilism and eternalism.
Here nothing is said about them for all are naturally
liberated into the 'Pure, Great, Naturally
Liberated'."
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Re: Meditation on Love will not break you out of Samsara

Postby purestsoul » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:48 pm

randomseb wrote:
purestsoul wrote:When one is truly enlightened, there is no good or evil. There is no love or hate.
.


These things don't go away, they just don't hook you like they would your average person, pulling you every which way. Don't misunderstand the teachings.

:twothumbsup:


99.9999999999999999999999999999999999% of the population on this planet can't handle the true nature of emptiness of our existence.

Because what happens when every human on this planet realizes then our entire reality is empty? The entire race of humanity will discorporate into emptiness/the tao at once.

And there are too many people attached to their sensory pleasures to want to discorporate into emptiness.

This is why there are too many people on spiritual boards cautioning the masses against "nihilism" when the true nature of our reality is beyond nihilism.

We are all simply fakes and frauds. Period.



Of course these things don't go away. They just disappear from the enlightened individual's field of reality cos the enlightened individual's energy field is too strong for love or hate.
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Re: Meditation on Love will not break you out of Samsara

Postby Andrew108 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:54 pm

The problem is that your first post here in this thread is a different view from what you are now saying. You have mixed things up. The first post you made was talking about consciousness. Now you are quoting Dzogchen masters. I can see some of the points you are making but you are mixing things up. Best thing would be a few paragraphs or a poem detailing what exactly your view is, rather than scattering quotes here and there.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Meditation on Love will not break you out of Samsara

Postby byamspa » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:00 am

Sometimes i think the most profound thing i get from the teachings is something like: 'keep your cool, don't be an asshole, and don't just stand there!'
Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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Re: Meditation on Love will not break you out of Samsara

Postby purestsoul » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:12 am

Andrew108 wrote:The problem is that your first post here in this thread is a different view from what you are now saying. You have mixed things up. The first post you made was talking about consciousness. Now you are quoting Dzogchen masters. I can see some of the points you are making but you are mixing things up. Best thing would be a few paragraphs or a poem detailing what exactly your view is, rather than scattering quotes here and there.


The Tao that can be said is not the Tao.

All of you do not exist and are just figments of my own imagination, my own ego.

The whole world does not exist for it is just my own imagination, my own ego making it up.

Even the double agents in here trying to reinforce the illusions that this world exist, do not exist, for how can one illusion ever try to pretend another illusion is real?
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Re: Meditation on Love will not break you out of Samsara

Postby byamspa » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:14 am

purestsoul wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:The problem is that your first post here in this thread is a different view from what you are now saying. You have mixed things up. The first post you made was talking about consciousness. Now you are quoting Dzogchen masters. I can see some of the points you are making but you are mixing things up. Best thing would be a few paragraphs or a poem detailing what exactly your view is, rather than scattering quotes here and there.


The Tao that can be said is not the Tao.

All of you do not exist and are just figments of my own imagination, my own ego.

The whole world does not exist for it is just my own imagination, my own ego making it up.

Even the double agents in here trying to reinforce the illusions that this world exist, do not exist, for how can one illusion ever try to pretend another illusion is real?


uh, ok, who owns this ego again? i missed that part i think, must have. :popcorn: (someone pass me the diet coke!)
Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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Re: Meditation on Love will not break you out of Samsara

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:17 am

Dear "purestsoul",

Please provide the sources for all the passages you quoted.

Thanks.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Meditation on Love will not break you out of Samsara

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:31 am

purestsoul wrote:The Tao that can be said is not the Tao.

All of you do not exist and are just figments of my own imagination, my own ego.

The whole world does not exist for it is just my own imagination, my own ego making it up.

Even the double agents in here trying to reinforce the illusions that this world exist, do not exist, for how can one illusion ever try to pretend another illusion is real?
Whatever you say, God!

Just mean to say that there is some serious misinterpretation going on here, which is to be expected, given you have not had these texts explained to you by a qualified (read realised) teacher, right?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Meditation on Love will not break you out of Samsara

Postby muni » Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:38 am

Nosta wrote:
Many masters advise to meditate on love.


Thank you Nosta for your bell. Too much mind, too less heart or boundless compassion, love, joy is then not in equanimity and so suffering is. :heart:

In boundless love no opposite is.
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Re: Meditation on Love will not break you out of Samsara

Postby Andrew108 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:05 am

purestsoul wrote:To get out of the cycle of samsara of rebirth and death, one has to eliminate all traces of emotions from one being, no love no hate no thoughts absolutely nothingness.

For that is how one can achieve the infinity of consciousness.


I think this is the main problem some people are having here. The idea that we need to get rid of our emotions and then we will achieve something. Your arguments are setting up the other extreme of nihilism or indifference over the eternalist effort of creating and then meditating on love (of establishing objects). So it is a bit out of balance.
I understand where you are coming from, but your cynicism needs to go all the way. To cut through everything. Cut through ideas of enlightenment, ideas of the infinity of consciousness, ideas of achievement, ideas of success, ideas as to what the natural state is. Ideas that love needs to be abandoned or not. And so on. We don't really need a tactical deployment of emptiness to deal with the natural state. The natural state belongs to nature. And so do we. We don't tell the natural state what it should be (''You should be an infinity of consciousness! You should be empty!''). We don't craft the natural state with our ideas. We just have to relax into it.
Of course you are right to talk about emptiness and it is a credit to you that you are not afraid of it. But an understanding of emptiness should lead to an understanding of wholeness or 'totalness' and not a one-sided nothingness.
Renunciation; practices like guru yoga or deity meditation, are all little love stories. Little love events that show the natural state is not one-sided emptiness. Our teachers pass these things on to us. We share in that.
Best wishes. Andrew
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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