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"Common Sense" interpretation of the suttas - Dhamma Wheel

"Common Sense" interpretation of the suttas

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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mikenz66
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"Common Sense" interpretation of the suttas

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:07 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: "Common Sense" interpretation of the suttas

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:15 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: "Common Sense" interpretation of the suttas

Postby Sylvester » Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:28 am

Hi Mike.

I think, sometimes, the over-wrought and complicated explanation may be worthwhile pursuing.

Since you cited the Sabba Sutta, I would mention the problem a "common sense" reading would present when applied to the Kaccanagota Sutta SN 12.15 which discusses the propositions "The All exists" and "The All does not exist". Most of us equate the All (sabba) in the Sabba Sutta, with the Sabba in the Kaccanagota Sutta.

In fact, if you look at the expanded version of SN 12.15 to be found in the Lokatiya Sutta, SN 12.48, the context reveals very clearly that the Buddha was not criticising ontological views about the bases, the indriyas etc, but was attacking the 2 competing theries of Causation that pre-dated Him. This would be the Vedic idea of self-causation and the wanderers' concept of other-causation. SN 12.48 expands the discussion to capture the ideas of Monism and Pluralism expounded by the rival schools to account for these 2 models of causation.

On this, Kalupahana's "Causality - the Central Philosophy of Buddhism" would be a worthwhile read to contextualise the Buddha's critique of "Sabba". Kalupahana gives a stupendously wide survey of the attested Causation theories recorded in the Nikayas, Agamas as well as Jain literature to furnish the backdrop for the pre-Buddhist conception of the All. I think SN 35.23 is the Buddha's re-working of the All theories that pre-dated Him, so that He could invest Sabba with its Buddhist flavour.

So, should we persist with a common sense application of SN 12.48, based on the understanding that the Sabba in SN.35.23 = the Sabba in SN 12.48, and thereby end up with non-common sense denials about the reality of our senses and sense data?

:anjali:

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Re: "Common Sense" interpretation of the suttas

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:54 am


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Re: "Common Sense" interpretation of the suttas

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:11 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: "Common Sense" interpretation of the suttas

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:19 am

Retro, you seem to be arguing that if you talk yourself into the philosophical view that there is nothing out there that it is easier to let go of it... Hmmm... Sounds fishy to me, but perhaps it's a useful approach... :thinking:

:anjali:
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Re: "Common Sense" interpretation of the suttas

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:24 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: "Common Sense" interpretation of the suttas

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:34 am

OK, but my model is that he is NOT saying anything about the possible existence or non-existence of a "physical" world. Only the "experienced world".

Therefore your line of reasoning is disallowed (by this model). So there! :tongue:

:anjali:
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Re: "Common Sense" interpretation of the suttas

Postby Sylvester » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:47 am


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Re: "Common Sense" interpretation of the suttas

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:51 am

Greetings,

You enjoy your sankharas then, Sylvester. :D

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: "Common Sense" interpretation of the suttas

Postby chownah » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:55 am


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Re: "Common Sense" interpretation of the suttas

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:57 am

:goodpost:
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: "Common Sense" interpretation of the suttas

Postby Sylvester » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:06 am


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Re: "Common Sense" interpretation of the suttas

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:27 am


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Re: "Common Sense" interpretation of the suttas

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:38 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: "Common Sense" interpretation of the suttas

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:58 am


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Re: "Common Sense" interpretation of the suttas

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:10 am

Greetings Mike,

Indeed... such a proclamation would be beyond range, and as such, could be neither proved nor disproved. What's that called in the scientific lingo, non-falsifiable?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: "Common Sense" interpretation of the suttas

Postby kirk5a » Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:31 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: "Common Sense" interpretation of the suttas

Postby pegembara » Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:33 pm

How does one view the world
so as not to be seen
by Death's king?

[The Buddha:]
View the world, Mogharaja,
as empty —
always mindful
to have removed any view
about self.

This way one is above & beyond death.
This is how one views the world
so as not to be seen
by Death's king.

Mogharaja's Question

Did the Buddha meant for us to pretend that the world is "empty" or is the world truly empty? Remember the Buddha is described as knower of the worlds and said "I know".
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: "Common Sense" interpretation of the suttas

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:25 pm



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