is Buddhism an evolved form of another ancient religion, cal

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is Buddhism an evolved form of another ancient religion, cal

Postby paganbuddha » Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:37 pm

from wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain_terms_and_concepts

to mee it seems like proto-buddhism

Main Points in Jainism

  • Every living being has a soul.
  • Every soul is potentially divine and has the innate qualities of infinite knowledge, infinite perception, infinite power, and infinite bliss. Have benevolence for all living beings.
  • Therefore, regard every living being as yourself and harm no one.
  • Every soul is born as a celestial, human, sub-human or hellish being according to its own karmas.
  • Every soul is the architect of its own life, here or hereafter.
  • When a soul becomes freed from karmas, it gets God-consciousness (infinite knowledge, infinite perception, infinite power, and infinite bliss) and becomes liberated.
  • Right faith, Right knowledge and Right Conduct (triple gems of Jainism) provide the way to this realisation.
  • Non-violence (Ahimsa) is the basis of right faith, the condition of right knowledge and the kernel of right conduct.
  • Control your senses.
  • Limit your possessions and lead a pure life of usefulness to yourself and others. Ownership of an object by itself is not possessiveness; however attachment to an object is possessiveness
  • Enjoy the company of the holy and better qualified, be merciful to those who are afflicted and be tolerant towards those who are perversely inclined.
  • Four things are difficult to attain by a soul: human birth, knowledge of the law, faith in it and the pursuit of the right path.
  • It is important not to waste human life in evil ways. Instead, we should strive to rise up on the ladder of spiritual evolution


even their "saints" look like the Buddha

Image


please discuss this topic

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Re: is Buddhism an evolved form of another ancient religion,

Postby paganbuddha » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:10 pm

further proof from
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... nd_Jainism" target="_blank

No creator god
- There is no creator god in Jainism.
- There is no creator god in Buddhism.

No creation myth
- There is no creation myth in Jainism, a first beginning is not knowable.
- There is no creation myth in Buddhism, a first beginning is not knowable.

Previous founders
- Mahavira was not the founder, but rather the re-discoverer of the truth according to Jainism.
- Buddha was not the founder, but rather the re-discoverer of the truth according to Buddhism.

24 prior teachers
- According to Jainism there are 24 known tirthankaras who discovered the truth after a time when the teachings were lost.
- According to Buddhism (Buddhavamsa) there were 24 previous Buddhas who discovered the truth (plus 3 in prehistoric times and Gotama-Buddha for a total of 28.

Warrior caste

- Mahavira was born into the ksatriya caste (warrior caste).
- Buddha was born into the ksatriya caste (warrior caste).

Siddhatha
- Mahavira was born to a ksatriyan chief named Siddhatha.
- Buddha was to a ksatriyan chief and Buddha's birth name was Siddhatha.

Yasoda
- Mahavira married a woman named Yasoda.
- Buddha married a woman named Yasoda.

One child
- Mahavira had one child (a daughter).
- Buddha had one child (a son).

Height of 6 feet
- It is reported that Mahavira was 6 feet tall (1.83m)
- It is reported that Buddha was 6 feet tall (1.83m)

Enlightenment under a tree
- Mahavira renounced the world at age 20 attained enlightenment under a tree at 28 and lived to 72 years.
- Buddha renounced the world at age 29 attained enlightenment under a tree at 35 and lived to 80 years.

Asceticism
- Mahavira practiced asceticism toward enlightenment.
- Buddha practiced asceticism toward / prior to enlightenment.

Dharma Shramana
- Jainism is in the Dharma category of religions that practice Shramana, which includes forms of renunciation and mental purification.
- Buddhism is in the Dharma category of religions that practice Shramana, which includes forms of renunciation and mental purification.

Yellow
- The color yellow is associated with Mahavira
- The color yellow is associated with Buddha (he wore yellow robes) and yellow is a common color in Buddhist temples

Rejection of caste
- Jainism rejects caste distinctions based on birth.
- Buddhism rejects caste distinctions based on birth.

5 precepts
- There are 5 great vows or precepts in Jainism.
- There are 5 primary precepts in Buddhism.

First Precept of Ahimsa
- The first precept in Jainism is Ahimsa (non-violence), which extends to all living beings.
- The first precept in Buddhism is to not kill, which extends to all living beings.

Second precept
- A second precept in Jainism is Satya (truthfulness).
- A second precept in Buddhism is truthfulness.

Third precept

- A third precept in Jainism is Asteya (not stealing).
- A third precept in Buddhism is not stealing.

Fourth precept
- A fourth precept in Jainism is Brahmacharya (celibacy for monks and nuns no sexual misconduct for lay people).
- A fourth precept in Buddhism is to refrain from sexual misconduct (celibacy for monks and nuns).

Fifth precept
- A fifth precept in Jainism in is Aparigraha non-materialism, non-attachment to material things.
- A fifth precept in Buddhism is refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness. (The only precept of the 5 which is somewhat different, but not completely different since the Buddhist version is also calling for no attachment.)

Fourfold assembly

- Mahavira instituted a fourfold assembly of monks, nuns, lay men, and lay women.
- Buddha instituted a fourfold assembly of monks, nuns, lay men, and lay women.

Nirvana (Nibbana)

- Jainism teaches that one must undergo pure conduct, practice meditation and attain enlightenment, release from rebirth.
- Buddhism teaches that one must undergo pure conduct, practice meditation and attain enlightenment, release from rebirth.

The other shore
- In Jainism the tirthankaras are known as ford-makers, who have crossed the river of samsara and rebirth.
- In Buddhism the simile of crossing the ocean to the other shore is frequently used to describe enlightenment, nibbana.

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Re: is Buddhism an evolved form of another ancient religion,

Postby kirtu » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:15 pm

Shakyamuni and Mahavira were contemporaries. In a sense you are right that Buddhism "evolved" from Jainism (although this is not actually correct) - Shakyamuni states in the Pali suttas that he was a Jain adherent for many lifetimes with the difference between himself and other Jains was in his scrupulous attention to karmic consequences.

But during Buddha did not create his Dharma out of Jainism nor is Buddhism an evolution of Jainism.

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Re: is Buddhism an evolved form of another ancient religion,

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:21 pm

It would be truer to say that it grew out of "Hinudism" (which predated Buddhism and Jainism) rather than Jainism since they (Buddhism and Jainism) both developed around the same time.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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Re: is Buddhism an evolved form of another ancient religion,

Postby paganbuddha » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:23 pm

kirtu wrote:But during Buddha did not create his Dharma out of Jainism nor is Buddhism an evolution of Jainism.


one what do you base this?

different religious leaders, marry a woman with a same name, lead similar life, come from the same background, teach the same by 80%

to me

jainism = roman catholic
buddhism = protestant

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Re: is Buddhism an evolved form of another ancient religion,

Postby paganbuddha » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:26 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:It would be truer to say that it grew out of "Hinudism" (which predated Buddhism and Jainism) rather than Jainism since they (Buddhism and Jainism) both developed around the same time.


you say both of them are primates, one is a chimp another is a gorilla

than how do you explain this?

viewtopic.php?f=77&t=12131&p=157416#p157412

one is almost like the other, I say both are chimps, one is a regular chimp, the other a bonobo chimp

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Re: is Buddhism an evolved form of another ancient religion,

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:34 pm

paganbuddha wrote:you say both of them are primates, one is a chimp another is a gorilla

than how do you explain this?

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 16#p157412" target="_blank" target="_blank

one is almost like the other, I say both are chimps, one is a regular chimp, the other a bonobo chimp
The first point "Every living being has a soul." is completely contradictory to mainstream Buddhism thought.

As for the primate analogy:
confused primate.jpg
confused primate.jpg (6.65 KiB) Viewed 1282 times
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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Re: is Buddhism an evolved form of another ancient religion,

Postby kirtu » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:40 pm

paganbuddha wrote:to me

jainism = roman catholic
buddhism = protestant


The similarities are superficial. Jainism and Buddhism have totally different concepts of the self and different views on liberation. However it was true that even during Buddha's time he was asked what the differences were between his Dharma and Jainism. Later people are said to not have been able to distinguish between Hinduism and Buddhism (this occurred early in the transmission of Buddhism to Tibet).

Religions/faith systems can appear to be quite similar but they can still have crucial differences.

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Re: is Buddhism an evolved form of another ancient religion,

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:25 pm

Karma is also a completely different thing in Jainism than it is in either Hinduism or Buddhism.

both are the surviving remnants of the shramanic tradition, but I wouldn't say Buddhism "came from" it, in fact if I recall the communities were contemporaries.
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Re: is Buddhism an evolved form of another ancient religion,

Postby _username_ » Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:37 pm

Possibly, the civilization at the time probably practiced a religion.

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Re: is Buddhism an evolved form of another ancient religion,

Postby Jikan » Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:48 pm

paganbuddha wrote:from wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain_terms_and_concepts

to mee it seems like proto-buddhism

Main Points in Jainism

[list]
[*] Every living being has a soul.

[*] Every soul is potentially divine and has the innate qualities of infinite knowledge, infinite perception, infinite power, and infinite bliss. Have benevolence for all living beings.

[*] Therefore, regard every living being as yourself and harm no one.

[*] Every soul is born as a celestial, human, sub-human or hellish being according to its own karmas.

[*] When a soul becomes freed from karmas, it gets God-consciousness (infinite knowledge, infinite perception, infinite power, and infinite bliss) and becomes liberated.


Please explain how these characteristics relate in any way to any form of Buddhism known to humanity.
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viewtopic.php?f=114&t=13727

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Re: is Buddhism an evolved form of another ancient religion,

Postby Huifeng » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:54 pm

Threads like this are why we need to pay proper attention to both history and a historical-critical approach to texts.

~~ Huifeng

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Re: is Buddhism an evolved form of another ancient religion,

Postby Indrajala » Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:45 am

There were actually some Jain influences in the early development of Buddhism as Bronkhorst describes:

Clearer, and even more surprising, is the fact that sometimes the Buddha himself is credited with practices which we can recognise as being typical of early Jainism, and which certain Buddhist text indeed ascribe to Jainas and criticise as such. For example, a Sutra of the Majjhima Nikaaya (the Cuu.ladukkhakkhandha Sutta) and its parallels in Chinese translation describe and criticise the Jainas as practising 'annihilation of former actions by asceticism' and 'non-performing of new actions'. This is an accurate description of the practices of the Jainas. But several other Sutras of the Buddhist canon put almost the same words in the mouth of the Buddha, who here approves of these practices. We conclude from this contradiction that non-Buddhist practices ― this time it clearly concerns Jaina practices ― had come to be accepted by at least some Buddhists, and ascribed to the Buddha himself.


Html:

http://kr.buddhism.org/zen/koan/y_bronkhorst.htm

Pdf version:

http://my.unil.ch/serval/document/BIB_EE3F136F6108.pdf


Also bear in mind that Magadha at the time had a common culture of śramaṇa-ism, so a lot of crossover is to be expected amongst religious traditions. There was also a widespread common Indo-European heritage, so many of the deities and cosmologies are similar if not identical.

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Re: is Buddhism an evolved form of another ancient religion,

Postby Aemilius » Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:45 am

kirtu wrote:Shakyamuni and Mahavira were contemporaries. In a sense you are right that Buddhism "evolved" from Jainism (although this is not actually correct) - Shakyamuni states in the Pali suttas that he was a Jain adherent for many lifetimes with the difference between himself and other Jains was in his scrupulous attention to karmic consequences.

But during Buddha did not create his Dharma out of Jainism nor is Buddhism an evolution of Jainism.

Kirt


Tell us just one sutta where Buddha Shakyamuni says anything like that! I have never encountered it, but I have encountered pali suttas where He ridicules the jain uposattha rituals, that are observed by jain laity, as being useless and wortheless, when compared to the Buddhist uposattha observances, meant for buddhist laity, which really do create something positive for this life and the future lives.
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Re: is Buddhism an evolved form of another ancient religion,

Postby Son of Buddha » Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:00 am

Aemilius wrote:
kirtu wrote:Shakyamuni and Mahavira were contemporaries. In a sense you are right that Buddhism "evolved" from Jainism (although this is not actually correct) - Shakyamuni states in the Pali suttas that he was a Jain adherent for many lifetimes with the difference between himself and other Jains was in his scrupulous attention to karmic consequences.

But during Buddha did not create his Dharma out of Jainism nor is Buddhism an evolution of Jainism.

Kirt


Tell us just one sutta where Buddha Shakyamuni says anything like that! I have never encountered it, but I have encountered pali suttas where He ridicules the jain uposattha rituals, that are observed by jain laity, as being useless and wortheless, when compared to the Buddhist uposattha observances, meant for buddhist laity, which really do create something positive for this life and the future lives.


Your right
Buddhism and Jain are very similar and this is probley the reason why their are so many suttas refuting jain ideas,as anyone reading the pali canon will know most refutations of doctibes were aimed mostly at the jains,in the suttas some of these debates are so intense it is said the jain leader gets so pissed off he vimits blood.

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Re: is Buddhism an evolved form of another ancient religion,

Postby Aemilius » Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:17 am

paganbuddha wrote:

Dharma Shramana
- Jainism is in the Dharma category of religions that practice Shramana, which includes forms of renunciation and mental purification.
- Buddhism is in the Dharma category of religions that practice Shramana, which includes forms of renunciation and mental purification.

Rejection of caste
- Jainism rejects caste distinctions based on birth.
- Buddhism rejects caste distinctions based on birth.



The cultural situation at the time of Buddha was more varied, it included different schools of Shramanas, Alex Berzin describes five different Shramana schools that existed at that time: Ajivika, Lokayata or Carvaka, Jain or Nigrantha, Ajnana, and Buddhism. Buddhist sutras mention six heterodox teachers, which adds two more teachers to this list of Alex Berzin, ( six plus buddhism makes seven).
It was common to all Shramana schools that they were outside of the brahman caste, they formed a class of mendicants free from brahmanism. Thus it is natural that they should emphasize independence from the hereditary or caste religion of the brahmans.
Jains were succesful in that they have survived in India to the present day. Now 2500 years later it is diffcult to know the actual situation, when there are a handful of Shramana schools operating in the different independent states and republics of India. Buddha's two main disciples Shariputra and Maudgalyayana were, before conversion to buddhism, followers Sañjaya, in the school of Ajñana. It would be more correct to say that both Jains and Buddhists belonged to a protest movement of Shramanas that declared their independency from the hereditary brahman religion.

(Alex berzin: Indian Society and Thought before and at the Time of Buddha)
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Re: is Buddhism an evolved form of another ancient religion,

Postby kirtu » Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:27 am

Aemilius wrote:
kirtu wrote:... Shakyamuni states in the Pali suttas that he was a Jain adherent for many lifetimes with the difference between himself and other Jains was in his scrupulous attent :tongue: ion to karmic consequences.


Tell us just one sutta where Buddha Shakyamuni says anything like that!


I'll see if I can find it. It's in one of the sutta series translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi. However when I had to move from DC I had to give all my sutta books away, I do have one Kindle version so I'll see if it is in there.

The Pali suttas have *lots* of surprises! :tongue:

I have never encountered it, but I have encountered pali suttas where He ridicules the jain uposattha rituals, that are observed by jain laity,...


"Ridicules" may be too strong. Do you have a reference in mind?

There is a Jain layperson who takes refuge in the Buddha but as a condition for refuge the layperson is explicitly told that he may not abandon the Jain community. I don't remember the specific details around that and it surely makes for interesting commentary. I'll see if I can find that as well.

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Re: is Buddhism an evolved form of another ancient religion,

Postby Aemilius » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:45 am

I don't think "ridicules" is far from it, Buddha Shakyamuni may not have always been "a nice person", is what comes to my mind.
Muluposatha sutta: The Roots of Uposatha http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.070.than.html

I think I know the sutta you may have in mind, in it a King converts to buddhism, Buddha then requests him not to cease providing food for the jain monks also.
svaha

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Re: is Buddhism an evolved form of another ancient religion,

Postby plwk » Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:15 am

There is a Jain layperson who takes refuge in the Buddha but as a condition for refuge the layperson is explicitly told that he may not abandon the Jain community. I don't remember the specific details around that and it surely makes for interesting commentary. I'll see if I can find that as well.

Sutta & Commentary

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Re: is Buddhism an evolved form of another ancient religion,

Postby Nemo » Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:20 pm

Hinduism contains the remnants of the teaching of the previous Buddha of the age, Kashyapa. When Maitreya comes there may be relics of Buddhism, but it seems unlikely as things will be very bad in the world then. When one is more fully involved Buddhism is not a religion. It is simply the truth about reality. No one gets to own that. It's all just a trick to get you to see reality.

The big difference is the final goal. Jains want to go to heaven. Buddha saw through this. After aeons in the Heaven of the 33 one falls back to the lower realms. In those realms bad decisions and bad karma are very easy to accumulate. The endless cycle of existence grinds on and on. So He gave many of the same tools but with a very different motivation. Merit calms the mind and allows one glimpses of reality(wisdom). Then a self referral loop of skillful means and wisdom accumulates the necessary karmic ground for liberation.

One uses the techniques as a medicine. The other just to get high.


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