New Dzogchen thesis

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New Dzogchen thesis

Postby dzogchungpa » Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:05 pm

Haven't read this yet, but it looks like it might be interesting:

The Philosophical Foundations of Classical rDzogs chen in Tibet:
Investigating the Distinction Between Dualistic Mind (sems) and Primordial knowing (ye shes)
by David Higgins of the Universite de Lausanne

http://libgen.org/book/index.php?md5=c32ffff728e26ee0b679db5dc66b551a
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Re: New Dzogchen thesis

Postby Jikan » Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:20 pm

Thank you for this. I'm interested in finding out what is meant by "Classical Dzogchen." Is it Semde, for instance? H Guenther used similar language to describe Longchenpa's oeuvre...

:namaste:
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Re: New Dzogchen thesis

Postby dzogchungpa » Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:03 pm

Jikan wrote:Thank you for this. I'm interested in finding out what is meant by "Classical Dzogchen." Is it Semde, for instance? H Guenther used similar language to describe Longchenpa's oeuvre...

:namaste:

My pleasure, Jikan. I have not yet read the thesis, but presumably he explains what he means by that expression early on.
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Re: New Dzogchen thesis

Postby Jikan » Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:10 pm

I've read around in it a bit in the last forty minutes or so. It appears to rely heavily on the Longchen Nynthik (including three translations!). The emphasis appears to be on explicating the teachings. I'm not sure what the particular contribution he's making is yet (what's new here?), but just from the point of view of content, the thesis is of interest.
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Re: New Dzogchen thesis

Postby dzogchungpa » Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:40 am

I have not read this yet either, but perhaps you will be interested in it:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/116656481/Higgins-Dzogchen-Rdzogs-Chen-Philosophy-of-Mind
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Re: New Dzogchen thesis

Postby tomamundsen » Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:51 am

dzogchungpa wrote:I have not read this yet either, but perhaps you will be interested in it:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/116656481/Higgins-Dzogchen-Rdzogs-Chen-Philosophy-of-Mind

:jawdrop: Thanks!
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Re: New Dzogchen thesis

Postby Greg » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:12 am

I've been spending some time with this, and really enjoying it. Very worthwhile and informative treatment. So far it doesn't seem like there is anything that is a real revelation as with Germano's stuff (for me at least) but he really does a good job synthesizing and contextualizing a huge amount of stuff and providing a solid summary.
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Re: New Dzogchen thesis

Postby Sönam » Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:56 pm

Jikan wrote:Thank you for this. I'm interested in finding out what is meant by "Classical Dzogchen." Is it Semde, for instance? H Guenther used similar language to describe Longchenpa's oeuvre...

:namaste:


Usually Classical Dzogchen is the pure tradition taught by Garab Dorje, the 3 statements, no more ... like ChNN's teaches Dzogchen.

Serge
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: New Dzogchen thesis

Postby Stewart » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:12 am

I'm sorry Serge...this is a fantasy...ChNN teaches from many aspects of Dzogchen....Semde, Longde etc....he has just finished giving a retreat on Shine and Lhatong for instance. He also prolifically teaches Anuyoga practices. To hold the idea that he is somehow apart from other teachers is just a contrived view.

ChNN told me that he teaches the same as other Dzogchen masters and he is not in contradiction as many people like to think. It's a fact that he is an amazing master, but really we don't have to create a separate category for him....that would be silly.

Yes, Guruyoga, Rushan, Trekcho (and Togal if you've had instructions) are the main practices of Dzogchen, but constantly harping on that anything else is secondary and by implication not worth looking at is ridiculous, ChNN himself does 'secondary' practices everyday....what does that say about him?

There is no such thing as 'pure' Dzogchen, ChNN also says this....I find it hard to believe you are sitting at home doing nothing apart from resting in the natural state constantly....I know I'm not.
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Re: New Dzogchen thesis

Postby heart » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:08 am

Yes, I think that is quite true Stewart.

But one thing that makes ChNNR stand out is that he teach Dzogchen to anyone that want to listen. In this way he is quite unusual. So, considering that you have to be quite close to other Dzogchen masters to get this kind of teachings I think many of ChNNR students really don't know what other Dzogchen masters teach. I agree with you, they all teach the same Dzogchen when they teach Dzogchen as far as I can see.

/magnus
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Re: New Dzogchen thesis

Postby Sönam » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:43 am

Stewart wrote:I'm sorry Serge...this is a fantasy...ChNN teaches from many aspects of Dzogchen....Semde, Longde etc....he has just finished giving a retreat on Shine and Lhatong for instance. He also prolifically teaches Anuyoga practices. To hold the idea that he is somehow apart from other teachers is just a contrived view.

ChNN told me that he teaches the same as other Dzogchen masters and he is not in contradiction as many people like to think. It's a fact that he is an amazing master, but really we don't have to create a separate category for him....that would be silly.

Yes, Guruyoga, Rushan, Trekcho (and Togal if you've had instructions) are the main practices of Dzogchen, but constantly harping on that anything else is secondary and by implication not worth looking at is ridiculous, ChNN himself does 'secondary' practices everyday....what does that say about him?

There is no such thing as 'pure' Dzogchen, ChNN also says this....I find it hard to believe you are sitting at home doing nothing apart from resting in the natural state constantly....I know I'm not.


Semde, Longde are not aspects but divisions. They are different approaches of the same teaching which is Dzogchen, the 3 statements. Because it can be helpfull to many of his students, he also taught anuyoga practices (not ati), the Tun book and other practice and he clearly often repeat that "it is not ati" but anu, for noone could make a mistake. What is different by him and some others is preciselly that ... he does not pretend to teach atiyoga when it is maha or anu yoga, and he systematically underligne that it is not dzogchen and that dzogchen is GY ... but despite that, some of his student don"t want to hear it and they go on and on ...
Of course, as I say myself, everything else is a secondary practice, including walking, swimming and playing poker ... as far as it is practiced with the dzogchen view (back to the 3 statements). So we all have secondary practices, ChNN too.
Pure dzogchen is a terminology used to differenciate dzogchen taught by the time of Garab Dorjé (3 statements) and what comes latter, mainly the nyingtig and all other preliminaries or secondaries. This differenciation does not come from me ... it's a current classification. Sorry for that (but you can have your own opinion).
As for your last ChNN's quote, as I already told, everything is a secondary practice (with dzogchen view), therefore you are not resting at home ... do not over interpret what ChNN says.

Serge
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: New Dzogchen thesis

Postby muni » Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:26 am

Where is ati anu maha ani shitty a problem other than in fixation, samsara! What need to prove what?

I always grasp sides!
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Re: New Dzogchen thesis

Postby Stewart » Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:45 am

Agreed, but with the understanding that the 3 divisions and the 3 statements were not taught by Garab Dorje as linked... This comes from ChNN's dreams, so we can't exactly call that classical Dzogchen, can we? You can't have it both ways Serge. Although I don't think this matters too much, as a I doubt every ChNN student practices all 3 series.

Nowhere in the 3 statements does ot mention Guru Yoga specifically, but we gladly accept that as essential.

Because something is Anu or Maha or Ngondro for that matter, doesn't mean it's not useful for supporting Dzogchen...ChNN even taught the Longsal Ngondro recently, he was venomous at all about other Ngondros, and I doubt he would teach it if it wasn't beneficial to Dzogchen practitioners.

I just think you original statement about how ChNN teaches, apart from being an exaggeration, does him a disservice, atempts to place a limitation on his activity.... The reality is that ChNN teaches using a variety of methods and approaches like any authentic master does, and all from the base of Dzogchen, but knowing students have different capacities gives us a toolbox of methods to help us establish ourselves in the natural state. This is exactly what Dzogchen masters like Tulku Urgyen and sons done/do. So how is he any different? TUR gave introduction to thousands of people... All without condition, he was a close master of ChNN, I'm sure this inspired him.

Creating categories and constantly trying to distinguish ChNN as removed from other masters is unhelpful. Also people constantly misquoting or misinterpreting what ChNN says is a big problem.... Saying 'we must go in essence' or 'work with circumstances' or 'we must collaborate' are ChNN's wise words... Not for us to add carelessly to our own comments in order to prove our opinions or create an aversion to something we don't like or just to be an asshole to other people.
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Re: New Dzogchen thesis

Postby Sönam » Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:48 am

I mainly do not disagree ...

Serge
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: New Dzogchen thesis

Postby heart » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:11 am

Stewart wrote:ChNN even taught the Longsal Ngondro recently, he was venomous at all about other Ngondros, and I doubt he would teach it if it wasn't beneficial to Dzogchen practitioners.


In the last teaching he also mentioned that he finished two complete ngondros himself and that he also quite enjoyed doing it. I think what he don't like with ngondro is this "first you do ngondro then you get the real teachings" attitude. I have experienced that attitude myself and I find no merit in it at all. Lots of people never finish the ngondro and develop guilt and aggression on that basis, what is the point of that?

/magnus
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Re: New Dzogchen thesis

Postby muni » Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:42 pm

:group: :heart:
Falling down into thoughts' stream, identification arises.
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Re: New Dzogchen thesis

Postby Silent Bob » Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:02 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:I have not read this yet either, but perhaps you will be interested in it:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/116656481/Higgins-Dzogchen-Rdzogs-Chen-Philosophy-of-Mind


David Higgins, of Victoria, BC, is a student of Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche and completed his Ph.D studies at the University of Lausanne, along with Thomas Doctor and Heidi Koppl, whose names may be familiar to some of you here.
"All the sublime teachings, so profound--to throw away one and then grab yet another will not bear even a single fruit. Persevere, therefore, in simply one."
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Re: New Dzogchen thesis

Postby muni » Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:06 pm

Stewart wrote:... to be an asshole to other people.



This seems to teach regarding the first post, about the book: "Investigating the Distinction Between Dualistic Mind (sems) and Primordial knowing"

It is said that Masters never talk to or teach others, never talk about others, since all is own compassion.

I have no idea of this. Since I see assholes, no doubt, I myself am an asshole. Law of deluded nature.

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Re: New Dzogchen thesis

Postby Dronma » Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:28 pm

Dzogchen is our primordial state, which we can discover through Guru Yoga. And Guru Yoga is the core essence of every "secondary" practice. So, through any practice we can discover and remain in our primordial state, i.e. in the state of Dzogchen.
Nothing more to analyze about it. :namaste:
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Re: New Dzogchen thesis

Postby MalaBeads » Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:39 pm

muni wrote: Since I see assholes, no doubt, I myself am an asshole. Law of deluded nature.


:rolling:

Just too funny.

Yep, that's pretty much how it works.

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. Whatever shall we all do???

Might as well just break out laughing......

Ciao!
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