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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:15 pm 
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oushi wrote:
Maybe this sums up the whole story. If you perceive Dharma as commodity, then I have nothing against such initiative.
I do not see Dharma as a commodity. You are misinterpreting (or misunderstanding) everything I have said.
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We were simply speaking about two different things here.
No, we are talking about the same thing, but we are talking past each other.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:37 pm 
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mikenz66 wrote:
It's interesting that opinions over there appear much more negative than here.


I am a Theravadin like you, but this reminds me why I also like the Mahayana and Mahayanists too; great karuna.

When karuna comes in conflict with rigidity to a rule, I prefer to choose karuna.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:40 pm 
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mikenz66 wrote:
Personally, based on listening to his talks, I thought of Ajahn Brahm as a bit lightweight. Then I met him at a weekend that included several talks and a one-day retreat in Hong Kong back in 2007. In person there was no doubting his seriousness and wisdom.


:thumbsup: I noticed that too. His public talks are full of stories and humor, not looking too serious. But when you meet him one-on-one and discuss jhanas, Dependent Origination, etc. you can see his seriousness and wisdom.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:08 pm 
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oushi,

From the website, it appears he is selling his time, with the implication that you can put him to work at whatever tasks may be legal for paid help to perform in Australia.

Someone has hired an Ajahn to prune the roses, with the proceeds going to support the temple.

I see nothing untoward about this (with my admittedly weak grasp on the Vinaya!).

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:13 pm 
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Jikan wrote:
From the website, it appears he is selling his time, with the implication that you can put him to work at whatever tasks may be legal for paid help to perform in Australia.
Someone has hired an Ajahn to prune the roses, with the proceeds going to support the temple.
I see nothing untoward about this (with my admittedly weak grasp on the Vinaya!).


The [Theravada] Vinaya has some pretty strict standards of what can and cannot be done by an ordained monk. In general, running errands is not allowed. I imagine he is referring to providing instruction, either one-on-one or to a small group or leading a retreat at a Dharma center at the choice of the winning bidder.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:45 pm 
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uan wrote:
I think many consider that Ajahn Brahm already went away from the teachings when he started ordaining women as monks. Didn't his own lineage disavow him because of that?

Instead of attending a conference on female ordination Ajahn Brahm decided to preempt and upstage the conference by ordaining a few of his female followers. In so doing he has set back the cause of female ordination in the Theravada by many years. How could he possibly have imagined that he was single-handedly qualified for such a task? In this light his recent attempt at a light-hearted 'monk for sale' campaign is indeed amusing, but not in the way that he intended.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:51 pm 
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Namgyal wrote:
Instead of attending a conference on female ordination Ajahn Brahm decided to preempt and upstage the conference by ordaining a few of his female followers.
How long has the discussion on female ordination been on the agenda? Since 1928! Why? Because they cannot find the prerequisite number of vow holding nuns to preside over the ordination (and some issues with racism and sexism)? How many nuns presided over the ordination of the first women nuns during the Buddhas time?

See, this whole thread, is basically about how "anally retentive" one wishes to be about rules. Nothing else.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:03 pm 
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David N. Snyder wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:
Personally, based on listening to his talks, I thought of Ajahn Brahm as a bit lightweight. Then I met him at a weekend that included several talks and a one-day retreat in Hong Kong back in 2007. In person there was no doubting his seriousness and wisdom.


:thumbsup: I noticed that too. His public talks are full of stories and humor, not looking too serious. But when you meet him one-on-one and discuss jhanas, Dependent Origination, etc. you can see his seriousness and wisdom.


Be sure to check out his sutta study talks. They are pretty dry, serious stuff...


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:13 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Namgyal wrote:
Instead of attending a conference on female ordination Ajahn Brahm decided to preempt and upstage the conference by ordaining a few of his female followers.
How long has the discussion on female ordination been on the agenda? Since 1928! Why? Because they cannot find the prerequisite number of vow holding nuns to preside over the ordination (and some issues with racism)? How many nuns presided over the ordination of the first women nuns during the Buddhas time?
See, this whole thread, is basically about how "anally retentive" one wishes to be about rules. Nothing else.

As far as altering the Theravada tradition is concerned, 1928 is only yesterday. At the very least one has to wait until the current generation of elders is replaced. In order to give a renewed female ordination lineage credentials that cannot be questioned there would also have to be a Theravada-Mahayana Buddhist Council on the subject. This process could easily take another decade; perhaps longer now thanks to Ajahn Brahm.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:21 pm 
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Namgyal wrote:
This process could easily take another decade; perhaps longer now thanks to Ajahn Brahm.


What process? It is already done. There are already many fully ordained bhikkhunis in the U.S., Canada, India, the rest of Asia and Sri Lanka. It is estimated that there are already over 1,000 fully ordained bhikkhunis.

Bhikkhuni ordination

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:26 pm 
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David N. Snyder wrote:
Namgyal wrote:
This process could easily take another decade; perhaps longer now thanks to Ajahn Brahm.


What process? It is already done. There are already many fully ordained bhikkhunis in the U.S., Canada, India, the rest of Asia and Sri Lanka. It is estimated that there are already over 1,000 fully ordained bhikkhunis.

Bhikkhuni ordination

When Theravada nuns can use a monastic seat on a bus in Thailand the process is done.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:31 pm 
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Namgyal wrote:
When Theravada nuns can use a monastic seat on a bus in Thailand the process is done.


Why would Thailand have so much authority over the bhikkhuni issue? Actually there are some fully ordained bhikkhunis in Thailand, such as Bhikkhuni Dhammananda and a few others.

The Buddha wasn't born in Thailand nor did he ever visit it. Sri Lanka has a much older history to Buddhism, especially Theravada, with the first writing of the Pali Canon at around 100 BCE.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:39 pm 
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David N. Snyder wrote:
Why would Thailand have so much authority over the bhikkhuni issue? Actually there are some fully ordained bhikkhunis in Thailand, such as Bhikkhuni Dhammananda and a few others.

The Buddha wasn't born in Thailand nor did he ever visit it. Sri Lanka has a much older history to Buddhism, especially Theravada, with the first writing of the Pali Canon at around 100 BCE.

Thailand, Cambodia, Myanmar and Sri Lanka do not officially accept any of these ordinations as valid. There are signs of progress in Sri Lanka, and to a lesser extent in Thailand, but full recognition and acceptance are still a very long way off.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:51 pm 
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Namgyal wrote:
Thailand, Cambodia, Myanmar and Sri Lanka do not officially accept any of these ordinations as valid. There are signs of progress in Sri Lanka, and to a lesser extent in Thailand, but full recognition and acceptance are still a very long way off.


No country, nor any single monk holds the stamp of approval one way or another for the ordinations. There is no pope or dalai lama in Theravada. They are recognized as full ordinations by the temple, the monks, the nuns, the lay people of the organization that provided the ordinations and by millions of others. And of course there are others who don't recognize them.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:27 am 
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When Theravada nuns can use a monastic seat on a bus in Thailand the process is done.


That's actually far from true. The Thai Sangha is a council of old, conservative men who wish not to have women in their midst in the Thai sangha. Their position is a faulty one, in that we all know that the Buddha himself, after some persuasion, ordained women into his Sangha. Apparently what was good enough for the Buddha falls short of what the old men of the Thai Sangha deem appropriate. The Thai Sangha instituted a fiction that once the Thai female sangha died out, there was no Vinaya means to ordain new women. That was a convenient sexist misogynistic facade.

Ajahn Brahm simply did an end run around the folly of the Thai Sangha and bully for him for doing it. He was a member of Ajahn Chah's inner circle, and really cannot be criticized for doing what his brethren failed to do.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:37 am 
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Namgyal wrote:
Instead of attending a conference on female ordination Ajahn Brahm decided to preempt and upstage the conference by ordaining a few of his female followers. In so doing he has set back the cause of female ordination in the Theravada by many years. How could he possibly have imagined that he was single-handedly qualified for such a task? In this light his recent attempt at a light-hearted 'monk for sale' campaign is indeed amusing, but not in the way that he intended.


There is scriptural support for what he did in the Nikāyas and also the Āgamas. He was within his rights to ordain bhikkhunis in the absence of Theravadin bhikkhunis. He did not need consent from the Thai sangha or anyone else for what he did. He was well within his rights and I believe he was well aware of this as well.

In any case, he is promoting Buddhism primarily in Australia where women are legally and culturally entitled to equal rights, which means they can and should be able to receive a bhikkhuni ordination regardless of whatever the sangha administration in Thailand thinks.

Namgyal wrote:
As far as altering the Theravada tradition is concerned, 1928 is only yesterday. At the very least one has to wait until the current generation of elders is replaced. In order to give a renewed female ordination lineage credentials that cannot be questioned there would also have to be a Theravada-Mahayana Buddhist Council on the subject. This process could easily take another decade; perhaps longer now thanks to Ajahn Brahm.


Why should the current generation of elderly monks in Asia have any bearing on women in Australia and elsewhere who want bhikkhuni ordinations?


Namgyal wrote:
Thailand, Cambodia, Myanmar and Sri Lanka do not officially accept any of these ordinations as valid. There are signs of progress in Sri Lanka, and to a lesser extent in Thailand, but full recognition and acceptance are still a very long way off.


What does it matter if these Asian countries don't politically sanction ordinations, especially in countries like Australia? Women have the right to be ordained as bhikkhunis. Ajahn Brahm was within his rights as a bhikkhu to ordain them in the absence of bhikkhunis.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:51 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:47 pm 
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BuddhaSoup wrote:
The Thai Sangha is a council of old, conservative men who wish not to have women in their midst in the Thai sangha. Their position is a faulty one, in that we all know that the Buddha himself, after some persuasion, ordained women into his Sangha.

Younger monks generally support female ordination. The present generation of conservative elders are intractable, but the next generation are not.
David N. Snyder wrote:
There is no pope or dalai lama in Theravada.

A far-fetched alternative solution is for The Dalai Lama, The King of Bhutan and The King of Thailand to host a huge ceremony at Bodh Gaya and recast the ordination lineage as a new Bhutanese Royal Order.of Nuns. The Korean/Taiwanese ordination lineage and lifetime membership of the new temple could then be bestowed on eminent senior nuns of both the Vajrayana/Mahayana and Theravada traditions. A remote nunnery/retreat centre in Bhutan, a monastic college for young nuns and an international sponsorship programme could then be administered jointly by Theravada and Vajrayana nuns, as two equal sub-sects. The 16th Karmapa briefly had an experimental monastery that was half Theravada monks and half Tibetan monks and it was an outstanding success.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:17 pm 
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plwk wrote:


What's a Speal? Maybe a SPecial apPEAL? Or a misspelling of spiel, the German noun for a game or play?

:shrug:

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:34 pm 
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Pedant! :tongue:

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