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 Post subject: Nirvana used for evil
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:08 pm 
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Once a person is able to understand and unbind the workings of perceived reality and karma.
Once enlightenment is attained and one is liberated from the hold of karma, can this ability be used for evil?
I mean can one act upon the thought that "Now karma cannot touch me. I can now do anything without karmic consequence."


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:19 pm 
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Yes. However once an individual has reached that point, he needs to have stopped viewing others as other than himself. Thus, he becomes unable to harm others.

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Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:44 pm 
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martian wrote:
Once a person is able to understand and unbind the workings of perceived reality and karma.
Once enlightenment is attained and one is liberated from the hold of karma, can this ability be used for evil?
I mean can one act upon the thought that "Now karma cannot touch me. I can now do anything without karmic consequence."

Obviously not. The very thought 'I can now do anything without karmic cosequence' shows that the person is ordinary.

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The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:56 pm 
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martian wrote:
Once a person is able to understand and unbind the workings of perceived reality and karma.
Once enlightenment is attained and one is liberated from the hold of karma, can this ability be used for evil?
I mean can one act upon the thought that "Now karma cannot touch me. I can now do anything without karmic consequence."


Thats impossible I think.

In order to reach Nirvana one needs to be complete compassive and good.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:14 am 
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The regularity of the Dhamma, here, denotes the causal principle that underlies all "fabricated" (saṅkhata) experience, i.e., experience made up of causal conditions and influences. Knowing this principle means mastering it: one can not only trace the course of causal processes but also escape from them by skillfully letting them disband. The knowledge of Unbinding is the realization of total freedom that comes when one has disbanded the causal processes of the realm of fabrication, leaving the freedom from causal influences that is termed the "Unfabricated." -Thanissaro Bhikkhu/Wings to Awakening

From what I can understand, in Nirvana, one has the capability to unbind and hence manipulate the processes that leads to what we see as delusions. Nirvana is achieved by training the mind to really see these processes and to have the capability to unbind them. The capability to unbind prevents karma from taking fruit, leading to liberation from it.
Let me illustrate. Let's say the number 6 represent a delusion. The underlying process would be 1+2+3 = 6. If we have the capability to unbind, we can manipulate this process to be 1+2 by taking away 3 thus preventing the process's fruition into 6.
Now, do we need total adherence ethics to to be able to attain this capability? If yes, where does adherence to ethics (being good) sit in this description of Nirvana. I think one only has to be just morally good enough to be less distracted enough by delusions to be able to train the mind to unbind the processes behind delusions. Being just morally good enough though means there is still some "evil" in there.

Btw, I know Thanissaro Bhikkhu is Theravadin but isn't the above description of Nirvana in lined with at least Zen?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:36 am 
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Well, this is merely my opinion. But in Buddhist morality, things are not good or evil in an absolute sense (like in Christianity). Instead, what is good is what beneficial and what is evil is what harmful.

The ten non-virtues and so forth cause rebirth in the lower realms. As they result from the three poisons, the performance of those acts strengthens the three poisons. This results in a feedback loop. Thus, the ten non-virtues and so forth are evil.

The ten virtues and so forth cause rebirth in the higher realms. As they result from a reduction of the three poisons, the performance of those acts weakens the three poisons. This results in a feedback loop. Thus, the ten non-virtues and so forth are good.

The above is very Nietzsche-ish.

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Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:35 am 
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Konchog1 wrote:
Well, this is merely my opinion. But in Buddhist morality, things are not good or evil in an absolute sense (like in Christianity). Instead, what is good is what beneficial and what is evil is what harmful.

The ten non-virtues and so forth cause rebirth in the lower realms. As they result from the three poisons, the performance of those acts strengthens the three poisons. This results in a feedback loop.


But with the knowledge of unbinding, one can cause the processes that creates the feedback loop to unbind and be dismantled, thus preventing the loop from happening. This prevents intentions and actions from having any karmic consequence right?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:33 am 
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martian wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:
Well, this is merely my opinion. But in Buddhist morality, things are not good or evil in an absolute sense (like in Christianity). Instead, what is good is what beneficial and what is evil is what harmful.

The ten non-virtues and so forth cause rebirth in the lower realms. As they result from the three poisons, the performance of those acts strengthens the three poisons. This results in a feedback loop.


But with the knowledge of unbinding, one can cause the processes that creates the feedback loop to unbind and be dismantled, thus preventing the loop from happening. This prevents intentions and actions from having any karmic consequence right?
No, because with a mind fogged by lust and hatred etc. you can't progress on the path. Therefore, thoughts and acts that allow you to progress are good, and ones that inhibit you are evil. But, yes once you perceive emptiness the feedback loop stops. But to reach that point one needs to follow morality.

_________________
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:43 am 
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martian wrote:
Once enlightenment is attained and one is liberated from the hold of karma, can this ability be used for evil?

no, because when you become liberated you equalize yourself with others emotionally.

in other words you always have in your mind an awareness of ultimate reality, which is the mode of existence of persons.
when you always carry an understanding of how people exist, you cannot form deluded ideas of how people exist (called deceptive truths) and so negative emotions have to mental space to arise.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:23 am 
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Konchog1 wrote:
...yes once you perceive emptiness the feedback loop stops. But to reach that point one needs to follow morality.


But being "100% ethical" is not a prerequisite for Nirvana. Its the realization of emptiness, the ability to see through delusions and unbind them, that is the prerequisite, that is Nirvana.
The state of being 100% ethical is impossible until one sees through delusions and gain understanding of emptiness. So our attempts to be ethical is just a means of training.
Following the precepts is just an exercise for the mind to strengthen it as it goes through the path to gain the knowledge of the Unbinding.

I guess to answer my original question "Can the knowledge of the Unbinding/realization of Emptiness/attainment of Nirvana be used for evil?",
It is possible theoretically I think but it will be unimaginable and will not make sense for a liberated person to do so.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:55 am 
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Tell you what martian, instead of wasting your time in useless discussion why don't you go off and become enlightened and then come back and see if you can still kick our asses? :smile:
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:24 am 
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hahahaha :cheers:


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:42 pm 
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martian wrote:
Once a person is able to understand and unbind the workings of perceived reality and karma.
Once enlightenment is attained and one is liberated from the hold of karma, can this ability be used for evil?
I mean can one act upon the thought that "Now karma cannot touch me. I can now do anything without karmic consequence."
The three poisons of passion, aggression and delusion are the roots of evil (unwholesome action). Nirvana is the termination of the three poisons of passion, aggression and delusion. Therefore, someone who is liberated is incapable of experiencing afflictions and incapable of performing unwholesome action.


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