Ngondro Reading Transmission Needed

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Ngondro Reading Transmission Needed

Postby cataractmoon » Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:51 pm

I live in the Oklahoma area and need a reading transmission of the common Ngondro offered at KTD Monastery. I have the teaching aspect of the practice from my teacher, whom I contact via phone. Many lamas focus on their own terrain, so to speak, and I understand that.

But, for those who live in the middle of "nowhere" with no access to a lama, I have a few options. I can spend money and receive the transmission from various places. I don't mind spending the money, but then again, I begin to think only the "rich" have access to the reading transmissions.

Are there any Karma Kagyu lamas in the Oklahoma area willing to let me drive toward them to receive the Ngondro transmission. The lama must be one affiliated in some way through KTD at Woodstock and the Karma Kagyu tradition.

Thanks.
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Re: Ngondro Reading Transmission Needed

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:24 pm

The lama must be one affiliated in some way through KTD at Woodstock and the Karma Kagyu tradition.
I don't know why you put these clauses in. Any lama that has received the specific teaching can give you the oral transmission regardless of their affiliation. It'll make finding a lama to do the job much easier.
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Re: Ngondro Reading Transmission Needed

Postby justsit » Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:31 pm

Not sure where you are in OK, or how far you're willing to drive, but the KTC Wichita FB page mentions Lama Kathy Wesley may be visiting in April. You could contact her at Columbus KTC and let her know your situation, ask if she would be willing to give you transmission in Wichita. She's great, I'm sure she would.
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Re: Ngondro Reading Transmission Needed

Postby dakini_boi » Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:43 pm

cataractmoon wrote:I live in the Oklahoma area and need a reading transmission of the common Ngondro offered at KTD Monastery. I have the teaching aspect of the practice from my teacher, whom I contact via phone.


Can't your lama give you the reading transmission over the phone?
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Re: Ngondro Reading Transmission Needed

Postby Yudron » Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:52 pm

dakini_boi wrote:
cataractmoon wrote:I live in the Oklahoma area and need a reading transmission of the common Ngondro offered at KTD Monastery. I have the teaching aspect of the practice from my teacher, whom I contact via phone.


Can't your lama give you the reading transmission over the phone?


If my experience is a guide, many lamas don't feel comfortable with phone lungs. But some do.
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Re: Ngondro Reading Transmission Needed

Postby conebeckham » Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:21 am

I think it's great that you want the Lung, but..........if you've got the instruction, you're good to go. You should have the Vajrasattva empowerment in order to accumulate VS mantras. But the main thing with ngondro, and especially with the refuge/prostrations/bodhicitta, is the explanation.

Don't wait to practice just because you don't have the Lung.
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Re: Ngondro Reading Transmission Needed

Postby practitioner » Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:56 am

Also, you may want to contact Kagyu Thubten Choling Monastery to see if any of their 3 year retreat graduates are currently living in your area. The same Karma Kagyu ngondro is taught and practiced there and any lama from there is fully qualified to give you the lung. And since the Kagyu ngondro is usually done step by step I agree with Cone, no empowerment is needed for Refuge/Bodhicitta so since you have the instructions there is no reason not to start your prostrations now.
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Re: Ngondro Reading Transmission Needed

Postby Terma » Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:54 am

Not my intention to contradict anyone by any means, but if one is working with a liturgy for ngondro then in most cases would they need a lung for this? Perhaps some teachers are different than others, some more traditional?

I do agree though that we don't need any lung to do prostrations or to generate bodhicitta :twothumbsup
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Re: Ngondro Reading Transmission Needed

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:38 am

conebeckham wrote:You should have the Vajrasattva empowerment in order to accumulate VS mantras.
Really? The empowerment and not just the lung? That's the first time I have heard that one. Maybe, because here in Greece empowerments (in general) are rare commodities this is not necessary?
But the main thing with ngondro, and especially with the refuge/prostrations/bodhicitta, is the explanation.
Interesting that you say the explanations are needed "in preference to" the reading transmission. Normally for liturgies (and especially mantra) it is the other way around.
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Re: Ngondro Reading Transmission Needed

Postby lama tsewang » Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:11 pm

if you have the instructions then why are you making a distinction, between that and a lung???

to get the explanation you do refer to the text of the liturgy
as for an empowerment , its also not necessary
dont tie yourself up in knots
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Re: Ngondro Reading Transmission Needed

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:24 pm

lama tsewang wrote:if you have the instructions then why are you making a distinction, between that and a lung???
As you would know quite well lama tsewang, they are considered as distinct. I, for example, have reading transmission (lung) for many practices (liturgies and mantra)that I have never received instructions/explanations (tri) for. I have empowerments (wang) for deities where I only received lung for the mantra and not the practices. Actually, I would say, from my experience, that the the rarest situation, is to have received instructions (tri) for a practice that you have never received a reading transmission (lung) or empowerment (wang) for.
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One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Ngondro Reading Transmission Needed

Postby Terma » Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:13 am

As I suggested, some teachers may do things a little differently. But I think ngondro is pretty important and though not everyone receives a lung from their main Guru, I think at the same time the reading transmission is often an important part to play in terms of not only receiving the blessings of the unbroken lineage, but also the blessings of the Lama who agrees to give the lung. Some teachers are happy that a student has the aspiration to undertake something like this and will often give it knowing that many students eventually give up the practice. But other Lama's give a little time to bring our sincerity to the forefront and often is the case where a student needs to request (even a few times) a lung or wang, etc.

More on topic though, is that there are many, many lama's who are able to give the lung for the Mahamudra ngondro. Sometimes I think a bit of travel to receive what is important to us does our practice some good. Not too many of us are lucky enough to say that our teacher lives in our very home town, so sometimes we have to do what we can. To the OP, on a practical level, try to generate merit and make strong aspirations to receive the lung, and I think it will all work out :twothumbsup:

BTW, I had to travel twice...once to ask the teacher if he would give it to me and then after following his instructions, again to formally request and receive the lung. All this to begin ngondro, but so worth it!
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Re: Ngondro Reading Transmission Needed

Postby cataractmoon » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:29 pm

Thanks, all, for the replies. I will contact KTD to locate retreat lamas in the area. And, if Lama Kathy visits Wichita, I will go there, of course.

I am also practicing the ngondro and am not discouraged.

KTD Monastery in Woodstock, NY doesn't allow reading transmissions over the phone.

Also, until I have the reading transmission, I cannot "count" the prostrations and ngondro I currently do until a reading transmission happens. Of course, ngondro still works, obviously.

These rules are not mine, of course. They may be arbitrary rules. Therefore, you may now understand all the "rules" in my original post.

I had the opportunity to work with Nyingma or Karma Kagyu. I have received instructions for Nyingma ngondro via a live feed transmission over the Internet. I am simply more connected to the Karma Kagyu tradition for karmic reasons.

I don't need the Vajrasattva empowerment, I hear, to do that part of Ngondro, but that's what I heard and may change. The rules continually change.

A lot of the above sounds like dogma. I really is and once discouraged me. Not so much now!

Thanks, all!
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Re: Ngondro Reading Transmission Needed

Postby conebeckham » Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:00 pm

Just my perspective--but the only real dogma is "Follow your specific teacher's instructions."

For what it's worth, I got the instructionn (Tri), and was told to begin and count things, before I got the Lung. But I was told that VS wang was needed prior to counting the VS mantra. Again, this differs from what you've been told...and in such instances, I fall back on the dogma indicated above! :soapbox:

Some people even say you're supposed to have some HYT empowerment prior to ngondro, I hear...... :shrug:
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Re: Ngondro Reading Transmission Needed

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:18 pm

I heard that one should be fully enlightened before starting ngondro. :tongue:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Ngondro Reading Transmission Needed

Postby lama tsewang » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:54 pm

NO NO, IF YOU GET AN EXPLANATION OF THE KARMA KAGYU NGONDRO , THAT WOULD SUBSUME HAVING THE LUNG , how else can the explanation be given? this is what i assume, it makes sense , usually in these circumstances id have the book and do both intertwined together.I find it very strange to hear someone say that they have the explanation for the karma kagyu ngondro, , and yet still does not have the necessary prerequisites for doing the practice??? and not only that, theres a fear of not being able to count the numbers of prostrations toward the total. youre tying yourself in knots. i would sugggest relaxing a bit , otherwise youre reinforcing the habits the ngondro is trying to weaken.
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Re: Ngondro Reading Transmission Needed

Postby randomseb » Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:48 pm

The Ngondro I examined the other day contained sections calling upon the lineage's patriarchal figures, up to the current Karmapa, as well as your root guru, during deep practice, and it seemed to me that the idea was to get "official" permission from the lineage for "invoking" them in such a way before being allowed to do said practice. Does this make sense? This then wouldn't be a question of dogmatism, but a direct personal okay'ing of being used as a focus in practice by your higher-ups, so to speak..

Like say, getting the okay to put a webcam on Karmapa for an hour.. It would not be polite to just do so randomly without permission!

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Re: Ngondro Reading Transmission Needed

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:58 pm

lama tsewang wrote:NO NO, IF YOU GET AN EXPLANATION OF THE KARMA KAGYU NGONDRO , THAT WOULD SUBSUME HAVING THE LUNG , how else can the explanation be given? this is what i assume, it makes sense , usually in these circumstances id have the book and do both intertwined together.I find it very strange to hear someone say that they have the explanation for the karma kagyu ngondro, , and yet still does not have the necessary prerequisites for doing the practice??? and not only that, theres a fear of not being able to count the numbers of prostrations toward the total. youre tying yourself in knots. i would sugggest relaxing a bit , otherwise youre reinforcing the habits the ngondro is trying to weaken.
So what you are saying is that getting a tri is the same as getting a lung?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Ngondro Reading Transmission Needed

Postby cataractmoon » Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:34 pm

I contacted Lama Kathy. She is indeed coming to Wichita, KS--a place I have been for teachings before. I requested permission to receive a reading transmission of the Ngondro. Problem Solved.

I am following my teacher's advice.

I am excited to meet for the first time a great American female lama trained by Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche, one of the greatest Vajra Masters I have ever met! (The only one I have met, however!)

Thanks to all for your advice. May all benefit! May this discussion forum continue to benefit others, too!
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Re: Ngondro Reading Transmission Needed

Postby cataractmoon » Thu May 09, 2013 2:58 pm

Ngondro reading transmission given. Ngondro began. Thanks, all!
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