Seymjo wrote:(Students) take written teachings as spears and shields and attack each other ...
Not only students, friend.
jeeprs wrote:I don't hang around UFO enthusiast forums saying 'hey UFOs are just projections, you know.' It would be a waste of everyone's time.
dzogchungpa wrote: As an American Buddhist I think I am well within my rights to concern myself with how Buddhism is being presented in this country, and online discourse is actually a very important part of that these days. So, I don't think criticism of "Zen" in online forums is necessarily a waste of everyone's time.
dzogchungpa wrote:Poor Nonin, he really seems to have shot himself in the foot with that article.
I'd feel sorry for him but he is, after all, a "Zen Master", so I figure he can take it.
This Katagiri thing is blowing up in his face and I think that may explain why his comments
are so belligerent.
dzogchungpa wrote:Comments like this really make me feel like "Zen" is some kind of spiritual illness.
Jikan wrote:dzogchungpa wrote:Comments like this really make me feel like "Zen" is some kind of spiritual illness.
Much of what passes for "Zen" in the English-speaking world is just that, in my opinion. This is evidenced in some of the threads here at DharmaWheel.
Much of it. Not all of it. There exist Zen teachers and centers in the US who practice Dharma authentically, often quietly, letting their practice speak for itself. I have seen this first-hand. I can give some examples if you like.
dzogchungpa wrote: I think there may have been something about how Zen was initially presented to the west that made it particularly vulnerable to the rise of "Zen", and we're seeing the results.Zen
Astus wrote:The deviations you see in Zen today happened before in China and other countries too. You just have to read the laments of the masters of the era.
I have received many positive compliments on my article from a variety of people who were calm enough to read it and smart enough to understand it. The negative stuff posted as comments here comes from the internet trolls...
Jikan wrote:dzogchungpa wrote: I think there may have been something about how Zen was initially presented to the west that made it particularly vulnerable to the rise of "Zen", and we're seeing the results.Zen
^^^This. Absolutely. The anti-intellectualism and authoritarian tendencies of Japanese Zen led to this kind of culture, at least in part. Even David Loy, whose work is problematic in its own way*, makes this point (this is in The Great Awakening), just to cite one instance.
I've had very positive experiences at the Zen Community of Oregon, led by Jan Chozen Bays. I've had excellent interactions with the Blue Heron Zen people in Seattle, the Golden Wind Zen people in SoCal, Daiyuzenji Temple in Chicago, among others. Remarkably for this thread, I once sat a weekend retreat with a student of Joshu Sasaki (long before the abuse we have been discussing became public knowledge) in Reno that transformed my life. There are others.
At the risk of overgeneralizing, it seems to me that the Zen proponents who do the self-promoting and speaking online and in the media are often the ones who face problematic situations (ahem) of the kind we are discussing. The ones who know don't talk so much online; the ones who talk a lot, by contrast... (speaking as someone who rarely hesitates to open his mouth online)
*If you'd like a detailed criticism of Loy's position, we can do it in another thread. I'm working on Loy's social thought as part of a separate project...
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