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MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Each week we study and discuss a different sutta or Dhamma text

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Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:44 am

Sure Retro, that's clearly what the whole exposition is about.

I'm just drawing attention to the part of the passage where one could make a case that the Buddha is actually speaking in a very straight-forward, common-sense maner using a fire as an example. Just as a modern teacher might. I suspect that there are a number of passages, such as this one, that ancient and modern commentators treat in very complicated ways, that are actually quite straightforward if the proper context is recognized.

Perhaps I'll start a thread on "common-sense interpretations of sutta passages" sometime if I can gather together enough examples...

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Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:48 am

Greetings Mike,

That would be interesting - I agree there is often unnecessary over-complication in various interpretations.

Often the suttas are pointing to the same thing, just in different ways, using different frames of reference.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

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Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby ancientbuddhism » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:23 pm

I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)


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Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:15 pm

Thanks AB!

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Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:51 pm

[Nutriment and dependent origination]

"Bhikkhus, there are these four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that already have come to be and for the support of those about to come to be. What four? They are: physical food as nutriment, gross or subtle; contact as the second; mental volition as the third; and consciousness as the fourth."

BB: Notes to Sutta MN9 .
"Nutriment" (ahara) is to be understood in a brad sense as a prominent condtion for the individual life-continuity.
Physical food is an important condition for the physical body, contact for feeling, mental volition for consciousness, and conciousness for mentality-materiality, the psychophysical organism in its totality. Craving is called the origin nutriment in that the craving of the previous existence the source of the present individuality with its dependence upon and continual consumption of the four nutriments in this existence. For an annotated compilation of the commentarial texts on the nutriments, see Nyanaponika Thera, The Four Nutrients of Life.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el105.html

MA: The Buddha states this passage and the following linking up the nutriments with dependent origination in order to show that he knows not merely the five aggregates but the entire chain of conditions responsible for their being.

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Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby Sylvester » Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:31 am


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Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:52 am


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Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:40 am


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Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:42 am

"Bhikkhus, knowing and seeing in this way would you run back into the past, ... run forward to the future, ... be inwardly perplexed about the present thus: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from, where will it go'?"

See also MN 131-134: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nana.html which discusses this "I-making" in detail.


"... knowing and seeing this way, would you speak thus: 'The Recluse says this and we speak at the bidding of the Recluse.'?
... do you speak only of what you have known, seen and understood for youselves? ..."
"Good Bhikkhus, So you have been guided by me with this Dhamma, which is visible here and now, immediately effective, inviting inspection, onward leading, to be experienced by the wise for themselves..."

BB: "The Recluse" is the Buddha.

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Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:05 am

"Bhikkhus, the decent of the embryo takes place through the union of three things..."

BB: The following portion of the discourse may be understood as the concrete application of dependent origination --- so far expressed only as a doctrinal formula --- to the course of individual existence.
The factors from consciousness through feeling result from past ignorance and formations, the cause factors of craving and clinging build up a continuation of the samsaric round, and finally dependent origination is connected to the appearance of the Buddha and his teaching of the Dhamma, showing that the practice of the Dhamma is the means of bringing the round to and end.


"... when there is the union of the mother and the father, and the mother is in season, and the gandhabba is present, though the union of these three things the descent of the embryo takes place."

MA: the gandhabba is the being arriving there. It is not someone (i.e. a disembodied spirit) standing nearby watching the future parents having intercourse, but a being driven on by the mechanism of kamma, due to be reborn on that occasion.

BB: The exact import of the word grandhabba in relation to the rebirth process is not explained in the Nikayas, and the word in this sense occurs only here an in DN 15 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
DN 15 speaks of conciousness as "descending into the mother's womb", this being a condition for rebirth to take place. thus we may identify the gandhabba here as the stream of conscisousness, conceived mroe animistically as coming over from the previous existence and bringing along its total accumulation of kammic tendencies and personality traits. The fullest study of the concept of the gandhabba is Vijesekera "Vedic Gandharva and Pali Gandhabba", in Buddhist and Vedic Studies, pp. 191-202.

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Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby cooran » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:13 am

Though I learn from all the threads in this section, I particularly appreciate this thread Mike, the method being used, and the effort you are putting into it.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:20 am

"... Engaged as he is in favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels --- whether pleasant of painful or neither painful-nor-pleasent --- he delights in that feeling, welcomes and remains holding onto it."

BB: MA explains that her delights in the painful feeling by clinging to it with thoughts of "I" and "mine". In confirmation of tht statement that a worldling may delight in painful feelings, one thinks not only of full-fledged masochism but also of the common tendency of people to put themselves into distressing situations in order to reinforce their sense of ego.


" On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing, he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder."

MA: An immeasurable mind (appamanacetao) is a supramundane mind; this means that he possesses the path.


"Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neiether-painful-nor-pleasent, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding onto it."

BB: This statement reveals that the chain of dependent origination is broken at the link between feeling and craving. Feeling arises necessarily because the body acquired through past craving is subject to the maturation of past kamma. however, if one does not delight in feeling, craving will not have the opportunity to arise and set off reactions of like and dislike that provide further fuel for the round, and thus the round will come to an end.


"Bhikkhus, remember this [discourse] of mine briefly as deliverance in the destruction of craving; but [remember] the bhikkhu Sati, son of a fisherman, as caught upo in a vast net of craving, in the trammel of craving."

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Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:21 am


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Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby Sylvester » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:34 am


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Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:28 am



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