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What body or kaya is this? - Dhamma Wheel

What body or kaya is this?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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DarwidHalim
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Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

What body or kaya is this?

Postby DarwidHalim » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:55 am

Dear Members,

During the abhidharma event, we know that Siddharta Gautama went to Tushita Heaven to teach his mother and many other attendances.

Tushita heaven is still within samsara realm and simply considered higher realm.

The question is during this event what kind of body did the Buddha use to appear in that realm so the attendees can see him?

Did he use his physical body similar with his appearance (physical body) on earth? Or did he use other manifestation such as his mystical body?

Does theravada acknowledge mystical body beside physical body? If yes, what is the Theravada jargon this these bodies?

In case you have references, please share it as well.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

santa100
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Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: What body or kaya is this?

Postby santa100 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:03 am

Think of water, which can exists in different shapes and forms depending on the surrounding environments. It's steam under high temperature, ice under low one, and liquid at room temperature. You put it into a tea pot, it'll take the shape of a tea pot, put it in cube shape container, it'll become the cube shape container.. The Buddha's attained the 6 supernatural powers, so he could just be like that..

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DarwidHalim
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Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

Re: What body or kaya is this?

Postby DarwidHalim » Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:31 am

Yes, what you said is true. I have no problem with it.

My problem is this.

Does Theravada have a jargon or label for different manifestation of Siddharta Gautama?

Or

Do they ONLY acknowledge Buddha only has 1 body which in this case wherever he goes during his life on earth (for example when he goes to Tushita Heaven) is his physical body (consists of blood and bones)?

Did Buddha appear in Tushita heaven with his blood and bone body?

If no, did he use his mystical body? What is the Theravada jargon for it?

Does Theravada accept multiple body of Buddha or is it a nonsense? If it is a nonsense, what is their explanation for the appearance of buddha in Tushita heaven? Appearing with this bloody and bonely body, like a superman moving from 1 place to another place?
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

Gena1480
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:36 am

Re: What body or kaya is this?

Postby Gena1480 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:07 am

it all depend on what consciousness used during the teaching
there are Seven Stations of Consciousness
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Seven Stations of Consciousness

"Ananda, there are these seven stations of consciousness and two spheres. Which seven?

"There are beings with diversity of body and diversity of perception, such as human beings, some devas, and some beings in the lower realms. This is the first station of consciousness.

"There are beings with diversity of body and singularity of perception, such as the devas of the Brahma hosts generated by the first [jhana] and some beings in the four realms of deprivation. This is the second station of consciousness. [2]

"There are beings with singularity of body and diversity of perception, such as the Radiant Devas. This is the third station of consciousness.

"There are beings with singularity of body and singularity of perception, such as the Beautifully Lustrous Devas. This is the fourth station of consciousness.

"There are beings who,with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' arrive at the dimension of the infinitude of space. This is the fifth station of consciousness.

"There are beings who, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' arrive at the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. This is the sixth station of consciousness.

"There are beings who, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' arrive at the dimension of nothingness. This is the seventh station of consciousness.

"The dimension of non-percipient beings and, second, the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. [These are the two spheres.]

"Now, as for the first station of consciousness — beings with diversity of body and diversity of perception, such as human beings, some devas, and some beings in the lower realms: If one discerns that [station of consciousness], discerns its origination, discerns its passing away, discerns its allure, discerns its drawbacks, discerns the escape from it, would it be proper, by means of that [discernment] to take delight there?"

"No, lord."

(Similarly with each of the remaining stations of consciousness and two spheres.)

"Ananda, when knowing — as they actually are — the origination, passing away, allure, drawbacks of — and escape from — these seven stations of consciousness and two spheres, a monk is released through lack of clinging, he is said to be a monk released through discernment.

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DarwidHalim
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Re: What body or kaya is this?

Postby DarwidHalim » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:28 am

Hi Gena,

Thank you for your Sutta. It opens several doors for me to ask more.

What is the meaning of diversity of body and singularity of body in this Sutta?

Since this Sutta mention diversity of body, it shall means we have different type of body. Does Theravada acknowledge this different body in human beings for example?

Based on what I know Theravada believe as a human we only this physical body. Outside that it is a speculation. However, I also realize that the news may only be a personal opinion about his understanding about Theravada. I do not read all Pali Sutta from A to Z, so I am in no capacity as well to say Theravada doesn't acknowledge different bodies. It may be somewhere out there in Pali text which mention it.

As clearly mention in the Sutta, there are different bodies, which means it must have more than 1 body. Does Theravada have specific jargon or label or name for this different bodies?
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

Gena1480
Posts: 308
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:36 am

Re: What body or kaya is this?

Postby Gena1480 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:59 am

diversity of body is 32 parts of the body and 4 elements
singularity of the body would be one body like skin and that's it for example
metta

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DarwidHalim
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Re: What body or kaya is this?

Postby DarwidHalim » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:05 am

Hi Gena,

Are you saying that the diversity of body in the Sutta is equivalent with the diversity of organs?

Are those 32 parts organs or bodies?
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

Nyana
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Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: What body or kaya is this?

Postby Nyana » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:50 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: What body or kaya is this?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:53 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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DarwidHalim
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:49 am
Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

Re: What body or kaya is this?

Postby DarwidHalim » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:03 am

Oh thank you for your reference. It is good to know in Theravada, there are actually different type of bodies (kayas) as well although it is very specific to this school.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!


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