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McMindfulness meditation dangers - Page 5 - Dhamma Wheel

McMindfulness meditation dangers

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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daverupa
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby daverupa » Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:02 pm


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tiltbillings
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:13 pm


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mikenz66
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:32 pm


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Dan74
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby Dan74 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:57 pm

I am sorry to butt in, Gentlemen, but is it really controversial that people have insights that are compatible with the Dhamma without ever having heard of the Dhamma?

I mean there are even the self-awakened ones, so why not the many more self-progressed-along-the-path-to-awakening-ones? Especially when exposed to parts of Dhamma?

To me this is completely self-evident. Is this what the debate is about or have I missed something again?
_/|\_

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Ben
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby Ben » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:11 pm

Greetings Dan,
Within the tradition, there can be no self-awakened ones unless one is referring to Sammasambuddhas and Paccekabuddhas who arise at the time when a Buddha's dispensaton has not arisen in the world or after it has been completely forgotten. Since we are at the beginning of the second Sasana of Gotama Buddha, there can be no self-awakened ones let alone sammasambuddhas and paccekabuddhas.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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daverupa
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby daverupa » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:55 pm


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mikenz66
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:01 pm


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Dan74
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby Dan74 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:21 pm

It always astounds me that with all the stories of arahats who awakened with minimal instruction, with all the historical examples of highly cultivated moral and wise people that had never heard of the Buddhadhamma, there seems to still be an insistence that without the proper textual basis you cannot get anywhere.

To say that solid textual basis is preferable in most cases needs no argument but to maintain that anything short of that will never lead to any progress on the path is incompatible with the evidence, IMO.

Quite the contrary, I would argue that very little is needed in order to lay proper foundations for practice. Ethics, Dependent Origination, Meditation Instuctions with advice not to attach to anything that arises can already take people far along the path and some even manage with less. They work out the rest as they go along.
_______________

Ben, what is the source of this view that you stated above? Canonical or postcanonical?
_/|\_

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daverupa
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby daverupa » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:13 am


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Dan74
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby Dan74 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:16 am

Same place the Buddha found it - insight.

But I am not talking about liberation even, just progress.
_/|\_

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Ben
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby Ben » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:16 am

Hi Dan
Its canonical. There is a sutta where the Buddha says that there is no awakening outside of the Buddhadhamma. If I get time later I'll try and hunt it down for you.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Alex123
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby Alex123 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:30 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Dan74
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby Dan74 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:09 am

Thanks Ben! I know this teaching and to me it is not saying the same thing as your earlier post.
_/|\_

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Ben
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby Ben » Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:49 am

No worries, Dan.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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mikenz66
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:44 am

And my suggestion above: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=10148&view=unread#p155604 wasn't that practitioners need no exposure at all to the Dhamma. I was suggesting, based on my experience and observations of others, that the amount of theory one needs to practise effectively is quite small, as long as one has some competent guidance.

:anjali:
Mike

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Dan74
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby Dan74 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:03 am

I agree, Mike, and also with Alex's statement above which is at least very plausible.

Basically we all have quite different kamma and different obstacles/fetters/defilements, hence different medicine and different dosage needed to treat the disease.

I have deep misgivings about mcmindfulness taught by those with little wisdom and appreciation of the Dhamma. But small doses of the Dhamma administered skilfully can have profoundly beneficial effects, I feel.
_/|\_

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tiltbillings
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:20 am


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Ben
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby Ben » Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:51 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Dan74
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby Dan74 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:31 am

Thank you, Ben (and Mike) for the quote.

It raises several questions for me.

1. Are we talking about ascetics of the first degree of saintliness when we say that people can make progress in the Dhamma with mindfulness training? That's setting the bar pretty high...

2. If we are talking about ascetics with at least the first degree of saintliness and the Noble Eightfold Path is needed, then Bahiya received it in very abridged form. Perhaps it is not needed literally but needs to be developed and implemented which can happen from some equivalent instruction, from past cultivation and present insight, etc?

3. It doesn't say that self-awakened ones cannot happen until the Buddha's teaching has died out, nor that people cannot arrive at the Noble Eightfold Path on their own and attain some level of cultivation.

PS Tilt, I've PMed Shonin. It would be interesting to hear of his work and perspective on this, I agree.
Last edited by Dan74 on Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
_/|\_

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retrofuturist
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:37 am

Greetings Dan,

Re: #2, the Buddha's brief instruction effectively taught Bahiya idappaccayata (this/that conditionality) and sabbe dhamma anatta... principles which are the heartwood of the Dhamma.

In that connection, see daverupa's post above - viewtopic.php?f=16&t=10148&start=80#p155609

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine


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