Is it possible to get a religious vaccine exemption?

[Dan74]

Touche!

Whoops. Did that deadpan a little too well...

I meant to convey that multiple anecdotes is definitely not data. You're correct, there's nothing convincing or evidence-constituting in testimonies.

No, the oops is mine! I thought you were kidding, but couldn't resist the rant regardless!

[Thrasymachus]

My prospective employer refused my religious objection which pissed me off, but allowed me to take the Quantiferon-gold test on drawn blood. The problem is I have no insurance and no doctor, so I am in a bind. The employers doctor was quite rude and refused my request to write a prescription for the test, as the Nurse objected saying they would have to pay for it! But that is nonsense, a Rx just gives you permission for medical services, I would have to pay. Now I may have to scramble to find a doctor and get into a tussle to pay him to write an Rx and also pay for the bloodwork and actual test!

Hopefully tomorrow my mom's boyfriend's doctor will write a script for me. So far I have called every lab and hospital in NJ listed here:
http://www.cellestis.com/IRM/content/us ... feron.html
But I cannot find a single lab that will do this without an Rx so far. Is there such a lab? And no one can tell me how much it would cost, one helpful lady told me it MAY cost $100 but she is not sure. I found this site that offers everything needed included an Rx for $150 and they list several labs in my area:
http://www.accesalabs.com/tb
However they mention:
https://www.accesalabs.com/myTiters
"You cannot get your specimens collected in MA, MD, NJ, NY or RI."(What does that mean?)
I also tried cold calling many labs via the phonebook but I got home by 4 pm and most labs were closed.

I really need to get this done quickly and fax the the results so I don't miss the orientation for the job, but I also don't want to pay through the nose. I really hate dealing with the medical system in this corrupt country, it always leaves me feeling so abused and powerless... I don't understand why I cannot just get a simple blood test because I want it. Does anyone have any help or suggestions?

[Simon E.]

Yeah...get the shot and stop being so precious ?

[Simon E.]

I haven't had a flu shot in probably 20+ years (I'm 30) and I can't remember the last time I had the flu, probably when I was very young. My son is now 4 and he's never had a flu shot either, and no flu. It's unnecessary in my opinion.

We have a sample of two people who have not contracted flu without the vaccine.

I have no idea how useful the flu vaccine is, but I know that the above is not a proof that it's useless.

I have mentioned this before but in the winters of 2008/9 and 2009/10 there were bad outbreaks of flu among the staff at the hospital where my wife works..hundreds of working hours were lost..staff take up of the flu shot were only about 30% .
Then two things happened, A young woman five months pregnant who had not had the shot died of complications following flu in the intensive care unit, and a nurse died the same way a few weeks later. The emotional reaction was huge.
Last November the uptake for the shots was 90%- ish and this winter despite extreme pressure on beds due to flu in the area, hardly any working hours have been lost for that particular reason.
I know the conclusion I draw from that.
But if people want to project their existential angst onto something tangible what can you do ?

[Lhug-Pa]

Yeah...get the shot and stop being so precious ?

Yeah... And drink your fluoride and eat your GMO's, synthetic-chemical pesticides, mercury/Chernobyl/Fukushima/BP-oil-contaminated fish, antibiotic/hormone-injected meat, & irradiated vegetables (and make sure to microwave it on top of all that); and if you're feeling a little down, why not pop some zoloft or prozac while you're at it? *side-effects may include vomiting, rashes, convulsions, loss of sight, suicidal thoughts, liver failure, or heart failure. Ask your doctor if big pharma is right you*

Act like a proper citizen (and "if you see something, say something"), don't ask too many questions, and allow the corporatocracy-funded 'scientists', corporatist/military-industrial-complex-controlled media, banksters, and police-state to take care of you.

[gregkavarnos]

No matter what you do, Yama is going to get you in the end!

Of course this does not mean that one does not take a reasonable amount of care about what they do with their bodies, but reasonable is the key word here. After one crosses the line of "reasonableness" (a shifting line, I grant you) they start to enter the zone of overestimation (of effect), over-attachment (to form), hypochondria and paranoia (ie their thoughts and actions become a source of suffering, rather than a source of liberation).

[Lhug-Pa]

Okay, Yama. Nevertheless, better to have a better quality of life while still physically alive, yes?

And again, with the emotionally-charged words and 'slide words' ("paranoia", "conspiracy", "tin-foil hat", etc.). Some here are accusing Thrasymachus and I of "paranoia", yet probably haven't even read over the links/information that we've posted (vaccinationcouncil.org, etc.)

It's totally reasonable to avoid all of the negative things I've mentioned above, even if it might not happen overnight for everyone. Avoiding all the corporatocracy's nonsense is not only reasonable, but is crucial for the well being of the planet and its inhabitants.

This why I'd posted the following in another thread:

http://www.helpfreetheearth.com/img/010 ... cineAd.jpg ...

...Vaccines are worthless for the most part, and maybe only useful in VERY RARE circumstances. We know of an eight month old baby who has never once gotten sick because his mom eats organically grown food, breastfeeds him, and did not have him vaccinated. Whereas many of the babies we know of whose mom's either don't eat organic, or don't breastfeed, or who did vaccinate (or all of the above) are getting sick left and right. Of course there is much research on the dangers of vaccines to corroborate this example of direct experience as well.

Intelligently avoiding the corporatocracy's toxins (GMO's, fluoride, vaccines, big pharma's so-called "medicines", synthetic-chemical pesticides, etc.) is compatible with the Tantric view of everything and everyone being of a Pure Dimension. For example H.H. the Dalai Lama (who I'm sure is always integrated with Right View) has recently expressed his concern regarding the dangers of GMO's, and has also expressed his concern regarding the Zionist Isreali's unfair (an understatement) treatment of the Palestinians:

Dalai Lama Questions the Use of Genetically Modified Organisms

Dalai Lama Troubled by Israel's Treatment of the Palestinians

Because the Dalai Lama—even though he is integrated with Pure Vision—knows that not everyone is a Mahasiddha who can literally transform physical toxins (for example: Virupa drinking enough alcohol to kill an elephant without even getting drunk); and he knows that not everyone has the circumstances to do formal sitting Dharma practice, the reason for this being precisely because of the mentioned current social conditions. Even if it's mainly because of each individual's own karmic-vision that many individuals don't have the circumstances to focus on Dharma practice, doesn't mean—as Thrasymachus has pointed out here—that we should ignore social conditions.

We both agree, Gregkavarnos, that balance is necessary. What it seems we don't agree about, is where that fine-line is. In light of the above regarding H.H. the Dalai Lama, again, I say:

"It's totally reasonable to avoid all of the negative things mentioned above (GMO's, big pharma, buying into the military-industrial complex's/corporatocracy's media/propaganda, etc.) even if it might not happen overnight for everyone. Avoiding all the corporatocracy's nonsense is not only reasonable, but is crucial for the well being of the planet and its inhabitants"

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

Hey should we be vegetarians?

KIDDING I'M KIDDING ...

[gregkavarnos]

You shouldn't use Dharma to justify your paranoia, it is a disservice to Dharma and to yourself.

Anyway, "avoiding" the "negative" is a mugs game, this is samsara after all. Permanent liberation is the goal of Dharma, not temporary avoidance.

You are a Dzogchen practitioner, right? Do you know of something that that is not a product of the sovereign all-creating mind? Do you know of something that is not an element/part of the Great Perfection?

Avoidance of negativity, attraction to the positive: a mugs game!

[Simon E.]

I AM a doctor. I realise that this makes me the enemy, but there we are.
Incidentally Chnn seems to approve of my vocation.

[Lhug-Pa]

Simon E., I saw your post that's now deleted, and okay, it wasn't quite fair of me to post as if you agree with all the other negativities I'd listed only because you agree with vaccines.

Many who are for vaccines, are for all of the other corporatist crap though, even many who post on this forum.

My apologies for appearing to make assumptions about your views. I was just quoting your post to make an example, and should have clarified that.

You have said before that Deities and semi-ethereal/semi-physical Nadi/Chakra systems, etc. are antiquated, superstition, etc.; so I wouldn't be surprised if you might see the contemporary medical-establishment & pharmaceuticals as not inferior to traditional methods such as Ayurveda and Tibetan Medicine. Or is this not your opinion on this topic?

(As I've said before, contemporary methods do have some value (particularly in regard to surgery), however we need to stop messing with all of this synthetic-chemical stuff, and start integrating more sustainable methods such as Ayurveda, Tibetan Medicine, Organics, etc.)

And no, your not an "enemy". Just someone who I disagree with in many cases.

Also, as I'm sure you well know, we should try not to argue, and should keep things respectful, per Rinpoche's wishes (a reminder to myself more than anything).

By the way, Chögyal Rinpoche has said that we should go with natural methods like Ayurveda and Tibetan Medicine, and he also written that herbs/plants should not get sprayed with chemical-synthetic pesticides.

Those who are in the medical profession are particularly in a position to start integrating his advice into the mainstream, when it is skillful to do so.

[Simon E.]

Did I ? I think I said that they are conventions not absolutes. Upaya, not ends in themselves. And that confusing the two is liable to end in superstition.
My view is that we should avail ourselves of the best of eastern and western medicine.
I had surgery last year..I then used acupuncture and aryuveda to restore my functioning more quickly.



But by jiminy I had the surgery. And the antibiotics.

[Lhug-Pa]

Did I ? I think I said that they are conventions not absolutes. Upaya, not ends in themselves. And that confusing the two is liable to end in superstition.

Well, that's not exactly how you presented it back then. Apologies, if I misunderstood you there.

My view is that we should avail ourselves of the best of eastern and western medicine.
I had surgery last year..I then used acupuncture and aryuveda to restore my functioning more quickly.

But by jiminy I had the surgery. And the antibiotics.

Like I'd said, western contemporary medicine has made a lot of progress in the aspect of surgery.

Can't necessarily judge you for taking antibiotics. If I had the same surgery and did not have a good Tibetan doctor and did not have enough knowledge to get through it without antibiotics, I might take them if there was no other option at the time and if it was a necessary means for getting through it. And I would try to avoid them at all costs, just like I do anything else concocted by big pharma.

You shouldn't use Dharma to justify your paranoia, it is a disservice to Dharma and to yourself.

Anyway, "avoiding" the "negative" is a mugs game, this is samsara after all. Permanent liberation is the goal of Dharma, not temporary avoidance.

You are a Dzogchen practitioner, right? Do you know of something that that is not a product of the sovereign all-creating mind? Do you know of something that is not an element/part of the Great Perfection?

Avoidance of negativity, attraction to the positive: a mugs game!

As many Dzogchen Masters have said (and what many westerners seem to ignore), Dzogchen does not mean that we simply do whatever we want. So all phenomena of samsara and nirvana are the display of the Sovereign All-Creating King. Does this mean that we should walk right into and fall in a chasm right before our eyes, just because everything is the illusory display of the Basis? Well, if we are really integrated—like Milarepa—and can literally fly, then why not.

As per the links I'd posted a couple posts back, the Dzogchenpa H.H. the Dalai Lama—who, well, would not only be integrated in Pure Vision but would also be beyond Pure Vision and impure vision—has spoken out against GMO's and other things related to social issues. He's not justifying "paranoia", "conspiracy theoeries", "tin-foil hat wearing" (or insert any other 'slide-word' often used in attempt to cut off critical-thinking).

Please, give the information about vaccines that Thrasymachus and I posted a chance at least.



P.S.

In Vajrayana, avoiding specific negativities at times is not an end in itself (like in Sutrayana), but a means to an end.

If one were for example trying to practice Tantra, and their Nadis are all messed up because of exposure to too many synthetic chemicals, radiation, etc.; it probably wouldn't work out very well now would it.

[Simon E.]

Also I proceeded as quickly as I could, without showing indecent haste, to Staff Health to get my flu shot last November.
And I will do the same this November.

[Lhug-Pa]

The employers doctor was quite rude and refused my request to write a prescription for the test, as the Nurse objected saying they would have to pay for it! But that is nonsense, a Rx just gives you permission for medical services, I would have to pay. Now I may have to scramble to find a doctor and get into a tussle to pay him to write an Rx and also pay for the bloodwork and actual test!

Since it was the employer who said that you can do the blood test, did you tell them that their doctor refused—based on false pretenses—to write the prescription, even though the employer are the ones who said you can have it done?


About this (since I can't edit my previous post anymore):

"If one were for example trying to practice Tantra, and their Nadis are all messed up because of exposure to too many synthetic chemicals, radiation, etc.; it probably wouldn't work out very well now would it."

Of course this doesn't at all imply that already-damaged Nadis can't be healed through Natural Medicine, Yantra Yoga, etc.

[ball-of-string]

Touche!

I meant to convey that multiple anecdotes is definitely not data. You're correct, there's nothing convincing or evidence-constituting in testimonies.

Yeah, but the opposite is also true: if you prescribe a vaccine for the entire human race, you are ignoring the people who fall outside 1-2 standard deviations of "normal" on a bell curve. Scientific studies suggest a treatment works for the majority of people who receive the treatment. But in every study there are people who showed no improvement or adverse effects to the treatment. When we legislate that all people must receive a treatment, you place a small percentage of the population at risk.

The next problem is that the studies measured for short-term outcomes. It becomes very difficult to measure the long-term impact of a treatment. We trust that pharmaceutical companies and the medical industry are studying this, but in actuality this is not a common undertaking. The scientific evidence that flu-shots are safe if repeated every year for many years is... Anecdotal. Or more to the point, the absence of substantial anecdotal evidence. No one who has ever claimed that their illness was caused by vaccines has ever been able to substantially prove this. So we know flu vaccines are safe because the many thousands of cases where people claim harm from them are impossible to substantiate, scientifically...

[Simon E.]

We also know that when they are widely used
( and the relatively small but dense population of the UK is ideal for this observation ) the incidence of the various flus drops markedly against the projected numbers.
Outcomes for all interventions in the UK are monitored by an independent body which has no financial incentive to pick one treatment/preventive over another..the shots are free to the user.
The said body, the National Institute for Clinical Excellence is independent of Big Pharma and is carefully designed so to be..their criterion is what works.
The British system differs widely from American models.
And N.I.C.E. says that the benefits of the flu vaccination programme are clear and demonstrable.
Of course the benefits are short term because of the unstable nature of flu viruses. Which are constantly mutating.

[gregkavarnos]

...As many Dzogchen Masters have said (and what many westerners seem to ignore), Dzogchen does not mean that we simply do whatever we want. So all phenomena of samsara and nirvana are the display of the Sovereign All-Creating King. Does this mean that we should walk right into and fall in a chasm right before our eyes, just because everything is the illusory display of the Basis? Well, if we are really integrated—like Milarepa—and can literally fly, then why not.

I mentioned the term "reasonable" beforehand, and the avoidance of extremes. You missed that bit? Did you also miss the bit about Yama getting you either way? So, while it is true that vaccinations are part of the military-industrial complex which is destroying this planet, at the same time they are saving countless sentient beings from the suffering of (avoidable) diseases. All aspects of our current reality are a a part of this complex, including the live webcasts made by your teacher. No military-industrial-petroleum-based system, no internet, no webcasts... (for example).

So, what, in this situation, is not perfect? What, in this situation, does not describe the impeccable workings of cause and effect?

[Lhug-Pa]

All aspects of our current reality are a a part of this complex, including the live webcasts made by your teacher. No military-industrial-petroleum-based system, no internet, no webcasts... (for example).

So, what, in this situation, is not perfect? What, in this situation, does not describe the impeccable workings of cause and effect?

Point taken, this is samsara; and moreover it is the nature of the Kali Yuga.

I still think it's possible to have things like internet, space-travel, and other technologies, without the M.I.C., heavy pollution, over-use of toxic synthetic-chemicals, etc.; that is if we work for it and educate ourselves instead of allowing the corporatist education-system to educate us, or at least work harder to reform the education system.

Although maybe we're too far past the tipping point, and we should only focus on our individual Dharma practice so that we have the good karma to be around after the Earth purges itself of the cancer (the effects of the actions of us humanoids) which are killing it, a purging which doesn't seem to be too far off....

And like I said before, we can't practice Dharma very well if our Nadi's are saturated with pollution and synthetic-chemicals. Although I think our bodies could handle a little currently unavoidable pollution to get started in practice (and even reach fruition) if we at least cut out the fluoride, synthetic-chemicals & pharmaceuticals as much as possible.

I mentioned the term "reasonable" beforehand, and the avoidance of extremes. You missed that bit? Did you also miss the bit about Yama getting you either way?

Not at all, and I specifically addressed your Yama comment (maybe you missed it because I'd edited into my post a few minutes later).

Actually the corporatocracy currently in place is the one that has become too extreme. Many people view those who speak out against it as extreme, simply because they've been indoctrinated by the extreme corporatocracy from day one (the same corporatocracy who for example tells people to put their kids on ritalin or antidepressants, vaccinates infants and tells parents that it's okay to disregard the natural enzymes found in breast-milk in order to substitute breast-milk with formula, etc.; hence "from day one").

So, while it is true that vaccinations are part of the military-industrial complex which is destroying this planet, at the same time they are saving countless sentient beings from the suffering of (avoidable) diseases.

Not really.

Vaccines might be useful—like I've said—in some rare instances, especially IF they were to not be mostly monopolized by the corporatist pharmaceutical giants.

They're far from saving 'countless sentient beings', even if they have saved fairly large numbers of sentient beings every once in a while. For the most part, they're unnecessary and even harmful in many cases.

[Pema Rigdzin]

I have mentioned this before but in the winters of 2008/9 and 2009/10 there were bad outbreaks of flu among the staff at the hospital where my wife works..hundreds of working hours were lost..staff take up of the flu shot were only about 30% .
Then two things happened, A young woman five months pregnant who had not had the shot died of complications following flu in the intensive care unit, and a nurse died the same way a few weeks later. The emotional reaction was huge.
Last November the uptake for the shots was 90%- ish and this winter despite extreme pressure on beds due to flu in the area, hardly any working hours have been lost for that particular reason.
I know the conclusion I draw from that.
But if people want to project their existential angst onto something tangible what can you do ?