Tulpas

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Tulpas

Postby sahaja » Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:59 pm

Anybody ever built a tulpa? Either as a part of or extension of dream yoga or for any other reason for that matter.
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Re: Tulpas

Postby Dronma » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:01 am

The purpose for practising Dream Yoga is NOT at all to create tulpas and such things.... :coffee:
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Re: Tulpas

Postby Pero » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:11 am

What's a tulpa?
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Re: Tulpas

Postby Lingpupa » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:25 am

Yes, if you wondered what a tulpa is and why we should be interested, see Lobsang Rampa. (Look, I was a young teenager when I read it, OK?)
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Re: Tulpas

Postby kirtu » Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:06 pm

A tulpa is a mentally created kind of emanation body that in the best cases looks and reacts just like a real person. However Alexandra David-Neel claimed that she had created a tulpa in one of her books - when I read that I put the book down in the bookstore and didn't buy it. She claims were impossible (from memory - the tulpa was seen by others and became difficult to control) but maybe see experienced a kind of extended vision from her ill-advised efforts.

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Re: Tulpas

Postby Adamantine » Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:44 pm

kirtu wrote:A tulpa is a mentally created kind of emanation body that in the best cases looks and reacts just like a real person. However Alexandra David-Neel claimed that she had created a tulpa in one of her books - when I read that I put the book down in the bookstore and didn't buy it. She claims were impossible (from memory - the tulpa was seen by others and became difficult to control) but maybe see experienced a kind of extended vision from her ill-advised efforts.

Kirt


Why do you think it's so unlikely she did it? She had accomplished it in extended dark retreat
if I recall correctly. It did seem odd she chose such a cartoonish entity to materialize though. I wonder
how much of her so called objective observations and experiments were just skillful means
writings to best communicate with a skeptical European audience after her return.
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Re: Tulpas

Postby kirtu » Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:55 pm

Adamantine wrote:
kirtu wrote:A tulpa is a mentally created kind of emanation body that in the best cases looks and reacts just like a real person. However Alexandra David-Neel claimed that she had created a tulpa in one of her books - when I read that I put the book down in the bookstore and didn't buy it. She claims were impossible (from memory - the tulpa was seen by others and became difficult to control) but maybe see experienced a kind of extended vision from her ill-advised efforts.


Why do you think it's so unlikely she did it? She had accomplished it in extended dark retreat
if I recall correctly. It did seem odd she chose such a cartoonish entity to materialize though. I wonder
how much of her so called objective observations and experiments were just skillful means
writings to best communicate with a skeptical European audience after her return.


I doubt that she was telling the truth on details. One can create (or seem to create - more like invoke) spiritual entities and imbue them with power but these are negative and can't do more than frighten people. Maybe siddhas can create the kind of illusion that Alexandra David-Neel claimed but I doubt that would be possible without very extensive retreat and preparation. How much time did she spend in Tibet and only some of that might have been on retreat? And it usually takes people years or decades to get really serious. Therefore I don't buy it. It's like the Golem legend from Prague.

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Re: Tulpas

Postby Dronma » Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:06 pm

Generally, I agree with what Kirtu is saying here. :thumbsup:
Evans-Wentz, Alexandra David-Néel and a few other pioneers, who re-discovered Tibetan Buddhism in the beginning of the last century, had made a lot of serious misinterpretations.
This can be easily seen by everybody who reads their books today, and he/she has received some good knowledge through real teachings.
However, I cannot see how the notion of "tulpa" is related with Dzogchen, and why the OP has posted this question here..... :shrug:
First of all, Dzogchen is for going beyond all duality!
Tulpa is exactly the opposite. It can be done after many-many years of intense practice, and it can easily imprison the creator in deep dualistic view. Because, instead of doing practice for discovering and establishing his/her real nature, he'll spend all his life for creating "though/form entities" for reasons that are totally unclear to me.
What is the benefit if at the end of my life, my last words will be: "I am here dying, and in front of me is my tulpa"..... :rolling:
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Re: Tulpas

Postby asunthatneversets » Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:22 am

There's actually some websites (http://tulpa.info/ | http://tulpaforce.tumblr.com/) out there with instructions for anyone who's interested in creating a tulpa to do so, but yeah the implications are pretty intense! Some of the instructions I saw have the individual start by visualizing an environment for the tulpa, and to construct that pretty in depth. Then once the environment is made they said to start visualizing the tulpa, but not to make it look like anyone you know. From there I guess you're supposed to spend pretty much as much free time as you can focusing on the visualization of the tulpa, and then at a certain point you're supposed to start speaking to it, just talking and carrying on a conversation. The verbal discussion and instructions mold how they will behave in the beginning. Then once that's done enough at some point you'll start to hear the tulpa speak back, and then you'll start to see the tulpa but no one else will be able to. I guess the tulpa will essentially just follow you around but as the experience increases others will start to be able to see the tulpa and the tulpa will start to have a mind of it's own and have it's own behavior. So you technically bring a sentient being into existence more or less. A few people said that the tulpas usually become somewhat emotionally unstable because they understand that they aren't 'like everyone else' etc. Supposedly the tulpa can't really be unmade or destroyed so it either is just around you all the time or will go off and do it's own thing. Pretty crazy stuff though, there was quite a few individuals on the site who wrote about their success in doing this.

If anything though the whole process just speaks to the accuracy of the five lights etc and how they become solidified as the five elements through adulteration.

Apparently this thing: 'The Slender Man' is supposed to be possibly tulpa-related (http://theslenderman.wikia.com/wiki/Slender_Man).

There was another story of an explorer who went to the himalayas in search of a master and apparently once he located the yogi, the yogi summoned a tulpa which approached the man and touched him on the forehead which immediately merged the guys mind with the yogi's and he said the vastness of the masters mind was beyond words.

-------------------

I posted this some time ago in the main Tibetan Buddhism board:

asunthatneversets wrote:Image

New film titled "The Apparition" which is out in theatres now is (loosely) based on Tulpa (thought-form) phenomena. Prior to filming, Warner Bros. hired paranormal investigator Joshua P. Warren to actually experiment with the notion and create a tulpa.

Summary of a radio show interview with Joshua:
"...paranormal investigator Joshua P. Warren finally revealed details about the groundbreaking experiment he was hired by Warner Brothers to conduct to 'create a ghost.' He was joined in the first hour by Todd Lincoln, writer/director of Warner Brothers' new horror movie, 'The Apparition'. Lincoln said his new film is inspired by experiments conducted in the 1970s by researchers who suggested that paranormal events happen because people believe in them. The group created a fictional back story for a man named Phillip and focused on manifesting him solely through the power of the mind, he explained. Strange things occurred which terrified the researchers and the experiment was halted, Lincoln added. In The Apparition a similar experiment summons an inhuman entity that gains its power from belief and fear, he noted.

Warren reported on his own attempt at creating a ghost using a lab setup, pointing out that "this actually worked." Components of the original Phillip experiment were combined with technology that amplified brain waves, he disclosed. The subject was asked to focus on a tiki doll and her thoughts were broadcast through equipment that magnified them into the equivalent of thousands of people thinking the same thing, Warren continued. Eventually, a huge harmonic-type field built up which damaged the equipment and ended the experiment, he recalled. According to Warren, seven days later he began to hear scratching sounds in the walls and saw a distorted human-shaped shadow walk down his staircase. In addition, objects were found inexplicably strewn about, the electrical system in Warren's building melted down, and other tenants claimed to have seen a shadowy being, he said. The implications to understand the nature of ghosts and the relationship between mind and environment are startling, Warren said."

Link to audio interview: http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2012/08/17

Images from Warren's lab set-up:
ImageImageImageImage

From Wikipedia (For those not familiar with Tulpas):
Tulpa (Wylie: sprul-pa; Sanskrit: निर्मित nirmita and निर्माण nirmāṇa; "to build" or "to construct") is an upaya concept in Tibetan Buddhism and Bon, discipline and teaching tool. The term was first rendered into English as 'Thoughtform' by Evans-Wentz (1954: p. 29):
"In as much as the mind creates the world of appearances, it can create any particular object desired. The process consists of giving palpable being to a visualization, in very much the same manner as an architect gives concrete expression in three dimensions to his abstract concepts after first having given them expression in the two-dimensions of his blue-print. The Tibetans call the One Mind's concretized visualization the Khorva (Hkhorva), equivalent to the Sanskrit Sangsara; that of an incarnate deity, like the Dalai or Tashi Lama, they call a Tul-ku (Sprul-sku), and that of a magician a Tul-pa (Sprul-pa), meaning a magically produced illusion or creation. A master of yoga can dissolve a Tul-pa as readily as he can create it; and his own illusory human body, or Tul-ku, he can likewise dissolve, and thus outwit Death. Sometimes, by means of this magic, one human form can be amalgamated with another, as in the instance of the wife of Marpa, guru of Milarepa, who ended her life by incorporating herself in the body of Marpa."

John Myrdhin Reynolds (1996: p. 350) in a note to his English translation of the life story of Garab Dorje defines a tulpa thus:
"A Nirmita (sprul-pa) is an emanation or a manifestation. A Buddha or other realized being is able to project many such Nirmitas simultaneously in an infinite variety of forms."

Thoughtform may be understood as a 'psychospiritual' complex of mind, energy or consciousness manifested either consciously or unconsciously, by a sentient being or in concert. In the Dzogchen view, accomplished thoughtform of the kye rim mode are sentient beings as they have a consciousness field or mindstream confluence in a dynamic of entrainment-secession and organization-entropy of emergent factors or from the mindstream intentionality of progenitor(s). Thoughtform may be benevolent, malevolent or of complex alignment and may be understood as a "spontaneous or intentional manifestation" or "emergence" (Tibetan: rang byung) of the 'Five Pure Lights' (Tibetan: 'od lnga). The Five Pure Lights may be understood as the "radiance" (Tibetan: 'od) or Clear Light (Tibetan: 'od gsal) substrate of 'mindstream' (Tibetan: sems rgyud) and the base or root 'dimensionality of all dharmas' (Sanskrit: dharmadhatu) of Nirvana and Samsara. The mindstream is an entwining or confluence of the 'Eight Consciousnesses' (Tibetan: rnam shes tshogs brgyad). Therefore, the Five Pure Lights are the 'root' (Tibetan: gzhi) of the Western scientific conceptions of matter and energy. From the Dzogchen perspective energy is nondual to 'spiritual energy' or 'vital force' (Tibetan: rlung). For the human species, defined in Traditional Tibetan medicine as the class of entities which holds a human la (Tibetan: bla), the Five Lung are direct homologues of the Five Pure Lights.

Professor H. H. Price, an Oxford philosopher and parapsychologist, held that once an idea has been formed, it "is no longer wholly under the control of the consciousness which gave it birth" but may operate independently on the minds of other people or on physical objects. It is contended that a meme is not a thoughtform, unless it is sentient. Though, memetic theory may be deemed an informative correlation to thoughtform phenomena.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulpa
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Re: Tulpas

Postby Adamantine » Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:53 am

asunthatneversets wrote:There's actually some websites (http://tulpa.info/


Hey sun i'm not so sure about how reputable that site is, in the intro he already spells meditation incorrectly as "medication".
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Re: Tulpas

Postby asunthatneversets » Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:18 am

Adamantine wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:There's actually some websites (http://tulpa.info/


Hey sun i'm not so sure about how reputable that site is, in the intro he already spells meditation incorrectly as "medication".


Oh yeah, don't get me wrong I wasn't implying that it was legitimate, it's been awhile since I read the site, but I recalled seeing different testimonials from different individuals (or different methods) posted in the guide section. I'm not saying that it's something anyone should actually involve themselves with haha, just posted the sites to show that it's a phenomena which has seeped into the western world a little bit.
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Re: Tulpas

Postby dakini_boi » Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:01 am

If you're going to go through that much trouble, why not just generate a Yidam?
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Re: Tulpas

Postby sahaja » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:47 am

Where are these rules about what is or is not Dzogchen and who came up with them? I'm sure my teacher would be find them amusing.

Never mind dualism. Just try to get beyond illusion a bit, or at least beyond the arrogance of conceptual mind. If you cannot see or understand perhaps it's because the ideas you have are blinding you, they have become your limitations. Ideas and beliefs are only just that, ideas you have. Or rather, ideas that have you.

Now i know this is an odd way of putting it -
From the practice of dream yoga comes the insight that all in dreams is illusion, created of thought forms, and there is no difference in dream and waking world. All material existence is merely thought form including you and me. In other words, you are a tulpa that you create unwittingly, without knowing how or why.

I was talking to another disciple in my sangha about this the other day and she looked incredulous. To go from something as nebulous as a dream form to that which appears to be as substantial as a human entity, a physical body and mind that apparently thinks, is quite a leap. For an explanation all i could say is that we are just really really good at it! (Making tulpas)

She had once accidently and unknowingly created an entity that gave her a bit of trouble. One of those things that go bump in the night. People do this often. They think they are being attacked by external unrelated evil forces or sometimes have an angel by their side. 'Tulpas' and their sort are not that hard to create. There's lots of different names and forms for them throughout various cultures.

My teacher told me some time ago that i was far advanced in dream yoga. I'll take his word for it. In one of my experiments i would start with empty space in a dream and create a form. Observing these can be enlightening, considering where they come from. It's been some time since i've done the yoga but i hope to begin again soon.

At the very least it's always nice to know what you are doing so you can know what not to do. I don't want to inadvertently wind up with a bunch of odd creature/entities running around bugging the neighbors. There's probably a reason yogis tend to be hermits.

....."For an explanation all i could say is that we are just really really good at it!"
For myself, i'm not satisfied with that. I want more insight into this progression through thought form to a physical being. Insight, not knowledge. Knowledge is transitory, insight stays with you. Insight is gained through experience, not from books or teachers. They can only point the the way. Your teacher can't do it for you. Hearing something is not the same as seeing it, realizing it for yourself. In any way, any thing, everything, whatever, all of the time. I'll use everything that comes my way and anything i want to.

Thank you asunthatneversets for your whole interesting post. Although i hope it's understood that Western ideation and translation can be far from the original meaning. Especially thanks for this:

From the post by asunthatneversets on Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:22 am

If anything though the whole process just speaks to the accuracy of the five lights etc and how they become solidified as the five elements through adulteration.

That's more like it! It pretty much says it all.
.
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Re: Tulpas

Postby asunthatneversets » Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:34 am

Kunzang wrote:
In the Dzogchen view, accomplished thoughtform of the kye rim mode are sentient beings as they have a consciousness field or mindstream confluence in a dynamic of entrainment-secession and organization-entropy of emergent factors or from the mindstream intentionality of progenitor(s).


What utter rubbish. There is nothing at all like that in Dzogchen.

Like Dronma said, this doesn't belong in the Dzogchen forum. It also doesn't belong in the Tibetan Buddhism forum either, because this is a Western occult practice with only a spurious connection to authentic Tibetan Buddhism.

Could one of the mods please move this to a more appropriate forum, like the lounge?


Yes well take that up with Vajranatha or the uninformed who post information to Wikipedia, I'm not sure which one wrote the passage you're objecting to but either way, I'm merely the messenger. The verbiage in the section you cited is indeed convoluted I do agree with that, but the info directly following which addresses the five lights is undoubtably relevant to dzogchen so it isn't all utter rubbish.

Also, as for dzogchen being nondual and that rendering these topics irrelevant, that isn't the case. The original tantras go very far out of their way to explore the nature of ignorance (and duality) and how it relates to the human body, the structuring of delusion etc. The fundamental ignorance which gives rise to the aberrations of the 12 nidanas is a process which isn't far off from the solidification of projection and imputation being discussed when it comes to tulpas etc.
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Re: Tulpas

Postby Andrew108 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:12 am

The Tulpa phenomenon has no real basis. It's a fantasy. If thought forms manifested physically then there wouldn't be any schizophrenics because we would be able to see who they were talking to.
Also Sahaja, Dzogchen isn't about building up insight. It's more about self-existant wisdom. One aspect of this wisdom is the effortless self-liberation of phenomena. Phenomena self-liberate themselves. It's good to have confidence in this.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Tulpas

Postby Namgyal » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:34 pm

Adamantine wrote:Hey sun i'm not so sure about how reputable that site is, in the intro he already spells meditation incorrectly as "medication".

Perhaps the author forgot his 'meditation' that morning :smile:
kirtu wrote: One can create (or seem to create - more like invoke) spiritual entities...Maybe siddhas can create the kind of illusion...

I agree, its 'invoke'.
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Re: Tulpas

Postby alpha » Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:08 pm

sahaja wrote:Anybody ever built a tulpa? Either as a part of or extension of dream yoga or for any other reason for that matter.


waste of time.
Nobody teaches tulpa building.
They teach instead stupa building which is far more useful.

Who is "they" ?
They are those who have wisdom and skill and don't waste time with building fantasies.
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Re: Tulpas

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:07 pm

The emanation of a tulpa is hardly a controversial idea. Chenrezig has as many arms as necessary to help all sentient beings.

The question is - of what use would this sort of thing be to a person without the guidance of a tantric guru?

I suggest anyone interested in the answer to such a question should google the words "egregore" and "schizophrenia".

Western occultism is littered with charlatans and victims of ego inflation.
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Re: Tulpas

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:15 pm

sahaja wrote:Where are these rules ...

I have heard they have something to do with proper motivation.

Which in turn can only be complete when we gather the accumulations, purify the obscurations and receive the blessings of a qualified master.
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Re: Tulpas

Postby asunthatneversets » Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:42 pm

Well my apologies for feeding the fire on this thread. Just for the record I'm in no way advocating for tulpa phenomena being a valid aspect of buddhism or dzogchen, and support whatever anyone wants to do with this thread :smile:
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