Rainbow Body - Why?

narraboth
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby narraboth » Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:01 pm


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Aemilius
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Aemilius » Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:34 pm

What supports the view that Tantra is for those who are enlightened
is that through it you develop the Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya ( through the visualisation practices of the Utpattikrama), and the Dharmakaya ( through the practice of the Sampannakrama).

"Maintaining awareness" does not mean thinking, it means a special practice of mindfulness.
svaha

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conebeckham
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby conebeckham » Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:02 pm



"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Aemilius
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Aemilius » Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:07 am

svaha

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Aemilius
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Aemilius » Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:42 pm

svaha

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conebeckham
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby conebeckham » Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:35 pm



"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby heart » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:03 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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conebeckham
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby conebeckham » Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:13 am

I agree with Magnus. Tulku Urgyen clearly indicates that the Creation Stage is to be practiced from the POV of Rigpa. Aemilius, I don't know where you are getting your information, or if you'e just speculating. I'm not even sure you're consistent in your assertions.

Here, for you, is a quote from Tulku Urgyen's book, "Vajra Heart," which I hesitate to quote from, but I think this particular quote isn't "restricted."

"The expression of the spontaneously present nature from the essence of primordial purity has existed since the beginning, so development and completion stage should be practiced as a unity." (p.63).

If one understands what Samatha and Vipassana are, then one clearly understands that Tulku Urgyen is stating that development stage MUST be practiced from the POV of Vipassana...actually, we could say from the union of samatha and Vipassana.
Further, this quote directly contradicts any assertion that one must first "achieve awakening" in creation stage prior to practicing completion stage.

You could say, in this instance, that "awakening" means knowing what "the expression of the spontaneously present nature from the essence of primordial purity" is........in that sense, I would agree that if you don't have an experiential understanding of that, you can't really follow Rinpoche's instructions. But I personally do not call such an experience "awakening." This may be a semantic difference, or it may be something more. I can't tell.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Aemilius
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Aemilius » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:18 pm

For Magnus and C. Beckham

I hope I'm not adding to the already existing mass of confusion. There are several problems that you have brought out, like what mr C-Beckham says: It is common to insist that everyone is on the level of a beginner, i.e. nobody is enlightened. Then on the other hand you demand that your practice of Tantra is to be called vipashyana, which leads to a contradiction. If you really practice vipashyana (or the three samadhis that are called Three Doors to Liberation) you are enlightened ! Then if one approaches the subject (of meditation in the tantra) realistically and assumes that most people are really just approaching the stages of samatha, then you immediately take immense offence!

Just for the record: There is samatha with a pure object, that is when your object of concentration is the visualized body of Avalokiteshvara, or Buddha Amitayus, or another Buddha/Bodhisattva. To me it seems clear that Urgyen Tulku has been refering to this level of practice, ( in what Pero quoted).
svaha

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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby heart » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:41 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:18 pm


mutsuk
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby mutsuk » Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:31 pm


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conebeckham
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby conebeckham » Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:44 pm

I agree completely with the presentation by Pema Rigdzin, above. And with Magnus's recommendations. I can't add a thing-- they have done their best to dispel confusion.

By the way, getting back on topic -- :smile: --we've agreed that Rainbow Body is a fruition, correct? Or, rather, a sign of fruition?

It struck me last night that perhaps the "why?" of it all is......to instill devotion and confidence. In the same way Sakyamuni demonstrated death as a reminder of impermanence, perhaps great masters who demonstrate the Rainbow Body do so from a wish to benefit us by causing an increase in confidence and devotion.

Just some thoughts....


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

mutsuk
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby mutsuk » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:15 pm


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Aemilius
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Aemilius » Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:37 pm

svaha

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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby heart » Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:34 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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conebeckham
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby conebeckham » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:58 pm



"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Aemilius
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Aemilius » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:22 pm

svaha

Dhondrub
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Dhondrub » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:34 pm

I just realized what I missed in this one sane and boring year without e-sangha! :tongue:
you can never have these kind of arguments with Dharmafriends in the real world, everybody would just feel totally ridiculous.
And yes the three Samadhis are a concept used in nearly all Nyingma Sadhanas( even though they are not always explecitly mentioned).


Best

Tashi

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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby heart » Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:38 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)


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