Cleary on Cultish Zen

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Astus
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Re: Cleary on Cultish Zen

Postby Astus » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:36 am

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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kirtu
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Re: Cleary on Cultish Zen

Postby kirtu » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:20 am



"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Cleary on Cultish Zen

Postby Dan74 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:56 am

Sorry to butt in, gents. My take on the just sitting=enlightenment is that it is once there is just sitting - without the proliferations, the sitter, etc. So it's the sales -pitch of the Soto school - shikantaza=enlightenment. The fine print is that there is a lot of training to be able to just sit.

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Re: Cleary on Cultish Zen

Postby oushi » Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:26 am

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Re: Cleary on Cultish Zen

Postby seeker242 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am

In the Platform Sutra, Hui Neng says: To concentrate the mind and to contemplate it until it is still is a disease and not Zen

If Dogen's definition of "Zazen" equals "hishiryo", then it appears that Hui Neng is not criticizing Dogen's zazen, yes?

If Dogen's definition of "Zazen" equals "hishiryo", then it would be correct to say zazen equals buddhahood, would it not?

But, if you don't need to sit down in meditation to see your true nature, then what are you supposed to do, if you currently can not see your true nature?
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: Cleary on Cultish Zen

Postby kirtu » Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:23 pm



"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Cleary on Cultish Zen

Postby Astus » Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:20 pm

Dogen in both the Zazengi and Fukanzazengi uses Yueshan's story, saying (): "Sitting fixedly, think of not thinking. How do you think of not thinking? Nonthinking. This is the art of zazen." (普勸坐禪儀 (T2580_.82.0001 a27-b01): 兀兀坐定。思量箇不思量底。不思量底如何思量。非思量此乃坐禪之要術也。 / 正法眼藏坐禪儀 (T2582_.82.0217c08-11): 兀兀ト坐定シテ。思量箇不思量底ナリ。不思量底。如何思量。コレ非思量ナリ。コレスナハチ坐禪ノ法術ナリ。)

So zazen is hishiryo (非 - non, 思量 - thinking), sometimes translated as "" or "". As Bielefeldt , in the older version of Dogen's manual he simply quotes Zhanglu Zongze's Zuochanyi as the explanation of the actual mental practice: "Whenever a thought occurs, be aware of it; as soon as you are aware of it, it will vanish. If you remain for a long period forgetful of objects, you will naturally become unified. The is the essential of art of zazen.", and it is an instruction that has a longer history in Zen (see Bielefeldt's book on this: Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation). Practically it is the same as the and .

Dogen's zazen is actually not as harsh as other Zen teachers like Shishuang Qingzhu where people never laid down (a practice criticised in the Platform Sutra). A difficulty is that in Soto Zen the word zazen is often used as a synonym of hishiryo, the enlightened view that should be practised regardless of one's activities. The problem is only when a practitioner believes that Zen is only for the time on the cushion, while in fact sitting comfortably is only training, preparation, an artificial environment to become strong. But since the only thing to be mastered is hishiryo by hishiryo, essentially there is nothing new developed or attained.
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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Matt J
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Re: Cleary on Cultish Zen

Postby Matt J » Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:23 pm

The Great Way is not difficult
If only there is no picking or choosing
--- Xin Xin Ming


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Re: Cleary on Cultish Zen

Postby DGA » Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:32 pm

Thanks Astus for clearing up some of my confusion on Dogen. Much appreciated!

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Re: Cleary on Cultish Zen

Postby oushi » Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:44 pm

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Re: Cleary on Cultish Zen

Postby DGA » Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:44 pm

oushi:

it is possible to practice something, to do something, with out a goal in mind or an expectation of any result from it. Sit there breathing: what is there to get from it apart from just sitting?

There's nothing to get and nothing to attain because you are, naturally, Buddha. So the practice is to conduct yourself as a Buddha.

That's my understanding of the practice. Others who are better informed or better established in practice may correct me here...

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Re: Cleary on Cultish Zen

Postby Astus » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:06 am

There is actually something to do, which is not generating samsara. In other words, although the nature of mind is already perfect, it is covered up by defilements. Cleaning the mind means not grasping at phenomena, not creating further trouble. The practice of letting go of appearances is itself stopping samsara and abiding in the buddha-mind by not abiding anywhere. This is what is done in zazen and this is the non-thought. Linji explains it very well:

The problem:

"If you engage in any seeking, it will all be pain. Much better to do nothing." (Record of Linji, tr. Sasaki, p. 19)

"Seeking buddha and seeking dharma are only making hell-karma. Seeking bodhisattvahood is also making karma; reading the sutras and studying the teachings are also making karma. Buddhas and patriarchs are people with nothing to do." (p. 17)

The solution:

"Bring to rest the thoughts of the ceaselessly seeking mind, and you will not differ from the patriarch-buddha." (p. 8)

"Followers of the Way, your own present activities do not differ from those of the patriarch-buddhas. You just don’t believe this and keep on seeking outside. Make no mistake! Outside there is no dharma; inside, there is nothing to be obtained. Better than grasp at the words from my mouth, take it easy and do nothing. Don’t continue [thoughts] that have already arisen and don’t let those that haven’t yet arisen be aroused." (p. 22)

In summary:

"It is because you cannot stop your mind which runs on seeking everywhere that a patriarch said, ‘Bah, superior men! Searching for your heads with your heads!’ When at these words you turn your own light in upon yourselves and never seek elsewhere, then you’ll know that your body and mind are not different from those of the patriarch-buddhas and on the instant have nothing to do—this is called ‘obtaining the dharma.’" (p. 28)

Dogen says in the :

"Therefore, put aside the intellectual practice of investigating words and chasing phrases, and learn to take the backward step that turns the light and shines it inward. Body and mind of themselves will drop away, and your original face will manifest. If you want to realize such, get to work on such right now."

To emphasise the central point of the last two quotes above:

"An often-used Chinese expression, consisting of only four characters, describes the essence of Zen practice very accurately and very simply: "Turn the light and illuminate back." This expression is found in the records of Rinzai as well as Dogen, and many other Zen masters from early Zen to the present. It was an important term for Chinul, the father of Korean Son or Zen, and it is a kind of motto today for the university where I teach, a Zen-affiliated institution in Kyoto." (Jeff Shore: )
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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Re: Cleary on Cultish Zen

Postby Wayfarer » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:26 am

In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: Cleary on Cultish Zen

Postby oushi » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:49 am

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Astus
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Re: Cleary on Cultish Zen

Postby Astus » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:59 am

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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oushi
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Re: Cleary on Cultish Zen

Postby oushi » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:12 pm

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Astus
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Re: Cleary on Cultish Zen

Postby Astus » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:14 pm

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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oushi
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Re: Cleary on Cultish Zen

Postby oushi » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:55 pm

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Re: Cleary on Cultish Zen

Postby Parasamgate » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:11 pm


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Re: Cleary on Cultish Zen

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