Taisen Deshimaru (and presumably others) talk about correct posture as a start, not an end.Astus wrote: Of course, those who maintain that Zen is about the correct posture will say these are wrong interpretations.
Kirt
Taisen Deshimaru (and presumably others) talk about correct posture as a start, not an end.Astus wrote: Of course, those who maintain that Zen is about the correct posture will say these are wrong interpretations.
Wouldn't saying such a thing compromise the idea of zazen equals enlightenment?kirtu wrote:Taisen Deshimaru (and presumably others) talk about correct posture as a start, not an end.
Not at all. Actual zazen (seated meditation) is the essential element for kensho and satori. But we take our zazen with us off the cushion - we don't leave it there. Zazen is the start of enlightenment and is practice/enlightenment. But until we see that, it's just practice. But we take that with us no matter what we do. This was Dogen's great teaching and is essentially the main teaching of the Shobogenzo (although he may have more than this great teaching in it - I haven't gone through all of it).Astus wrote:Wouldn't saying such a thing compromise the idea of zazen equals enlightenment?kirtu wrote:Taisen Deshimaru (and presumably others) talk about correct posture as a start, not an end.
If you can take zazen off the cushion then why is sitting, and in a specific posture, important at all? For instance, one can recite the nenbutsu or work on a koan anywhere in any posture.kirtu wrote:Not at all. Actual zazen (seated meditation) is the essential element for kensho and satori. But we take our zazen with us off the cushion - we don't leave it there. Zazen is the start of enlightenment and is practice/enlightenment. But until we see that, it's just practice. But we take that with us no matter what we do.
Please explain to me, what is that you take off the cushion? I think people often mistake zazen mind with makyo...kirtu wrote:But we take our zazen with us off the cushion
Sitting is important because it reveals your own Buddhanature to you. Zazen is a more intensive and direct practice than nembutsu for example although one can awaken to their Buddhanature through nembutsu as well.Astus wrote:If you can take zazen off the cushion then why is sitting, and in a specific posture, important at all? For instance, one can recite the nenbutsu or work on a koan anywhere in any posture.kirtu wrote:Not at all. Actual zazen (seated meditation) is the essential element for kensho and satori. But we take our zazen with us off the cushion - we don't leave it there. Zazen is the start of enlightenment and is practice/enlightenment. But until we see that, it's just practice. But we take that with us no matter what we do.
You take your current expression of Buddha, you as Buddha, off the cushion when you get up and interact in the world.oushi wrote:Please explain to me, what is that you take off the cushion? I think people often mistake zazen mind with makyo...kirtu wrote:But we take our zazen with us off the cushion
Zazen mind is "unpicking" itself, so how can it be picked up? If you think you can pick up "not picking up", you are deluding yourself. Just an attempt of desiring mind to take control of something great.
I'm talking about sitting as a physical posture. People sit a lot every day in the office, at home, in a restaurant, in the car, etc. They sit because it is convenient. As Zhiyi writes (The Essentials of Buddhist Meditation, ch. 6, tr. Ven. Dharmamitra): "although it is true that this can be accomplished in any of the four deportments, still, for the study of the path, sitting is the superior posture." However, Huineng says (Platform Sutra, ch. 9, tr. McRae): "One is enlightened to the Way through the mind. How could it depend on sitting?" Even Dogen asks in the Fukanzazengi: "How could that be limited to sitting or lying down?" And in the Bendowa (PDF): "This is not only practised while sitting, it is like a hammer striking emptiness; before and after, its ringing pervades everywhere. How can it be limited to a place?"kirtu wrote:Sitting is important because it reveals your own Buddhanature to you. Zazen is a more intensive and direct practice than nembutsu for example although one can awaken to their Buddhanature through nembutsu as well.
jeeprs wrote:I guess anything can become corrupted - any spiritual movement, philosophy or practice, can be subjugated by politics or the military or the culture of the day. There are no guarantees to prevent that from happening, literally no silver bullet. It is up to every person who wants to understand the truth that Zen teaches to pursue it to the best of their ability. But there are still no guaranteed 'ways' or 'methods'. People can always fool themselves and you can't legislate against it when they do.
Brian Victoria's book caused a lot of soul-searching amongst Zen practitioners and it was impossible to deny that it contained some truth. (I have noticed that Slavoj Žižek refers to it when he wishes to engage in his ritual denigration of Modern Buddhism.) But I think there have been some effective rebuttals of aspects of Victoria's book, particularly his criticism of D T Suzuki (although I can't recall the detail right at this moment).
I don't interpret Dogen's 'practice is enlightenment' as a magic formula. I think to read it as 'I practice, therefore I'm enlightened' is completely mistaken. Zen Mind Beginner's Mind and To Meet the Real Dragon by Nishijima are two of the modern classics on this practice. The interpretation of this phrase that they offer is that the student needs to be very attentive to his/her actual condition, what really is the case for them, rather than becoming oriented towards some remote future attainment. The idea is actually not dissimilar to the Christian 'Practicing the Presence' meditation. You're not chasing the pot of gold at the end of the proverbial rainbow, but awakening to the reality of tathata in this very life, in this very moment. 'I chop wood, I draw water, how marvellous, how mysterious'. It has always made sense to me - no matter how many other forms of Buddhism I consider, this is the one I return to.
Sitting is the preeminent yogic posture for meditation. The best posture is with legs crossed in lotus , then in half lotus, then in Burmese, then in Western. The back is then held straight, etc. (this detail differs from tradition to tradition slightly - in Taoism for example a straight back means a slightly rounded back). This posture straightens or opens the channels and facilitates deep concentration. As a yogic posture it just does this.Astus wrote:
I'm talking about sitting as a physical posture. People sit a lot every day in the office, at home, in a restaurant, in the car, etc. ....
What makes sitting more intensive and direct? How does intensity and directness depend on sitting?
and once a Chan monk told me that doing prostrations is the best.
It is important, it's just not absolutely critical as meditation is done with the mind. But there is no other posture that facilitates long term deep concentration.Many simply say that posture is not that important.
Astus wrote:If you can take zazen off the cushion then why is sitting, and in a specific posture, important at all? For instance, one can recite the nenbutsu or work on a koan anywhere in any posture.kirtu wrote:Not at all. Actual zazen (seated meditation) is the essential element for kensho and satori. But we take our zazen with us off the cushion - we don't leave it there. Zazen is the start of enlightenment and is practice/enlightenment. But until we see that, it's just practice. But we take that with us no matter what we do.
But concentration, attaining various levels of absorption, is neither the method nor the goal of Zen. I'm not questioning the yogic qualities of the posture, but they're not discussed in Zen works (except for Hakuin's tradition where it comes from outside of Buddhism), and they don't equal realising buddha-nature.kirtu wrote:It is important, it's just not absolutely critical as meditation is done with the mind. But there is no other posture that facilitates long term deep concentration.
Not necessarily. It's Chan in motion.For purification/Buddha repentance practice.
Then we are talking about a gradual development, just as in any other school, except that in Zen they forgot to provide the description of the stages.Matt J wrote:This is like saying, if you can swim in the ocean, why swim in a pool at all?
Sitting is important because it allows us to leave off everything else and collect ourselves. Sitting in a proper posture is important because a proper posture facilitates relaxation and concentration.
Every teacher I've had, Zen, Theravada, and other, have started with sitting and then at some point say "now take your practice with you." In my experience, zazen is the hardest to get but the easiest to take into daily life.
Concentration is the beginning method of zazen. It's why people count their breaths. A minimal concentration is needed to actually begin zazen and it is rooted in concentration.Astus wrote:But concentration, attaining various levels of absorption, is neither the method nor the goal of Zen.kirtu wrote:It is important, it's just not absolutely critical as meditation is done with the mind. But there is no other posture that facilitates long term deep concentration.
I was about to quote Fukanzazengi but you mentioned the yogic qualities - that may be. Nonetheless Zen teachers teach this directly, verbally and it is verifiable in experience.I'm not questioning the yogic qualities of the posture, but they're not discussed in Zen works (except for Hakuin's tradition where it comes from outside of Buddhism), and they don't equal realising buddha-nature.
The sitting posture itself is not identical to Buddhahood. Deshimaru didn't mean that literally. However sitting is needed to accomplish zazen (unless one has a handicap , in which case it would be difficult but not impossible). But zazen is practice/enlightenment. From the beginning. In Zen, zazen is the gateway to directly discovering one's Buddhahood for oneself.Astus wrote:Kirt,
Yes, they teach counting the breath, focusing on the lower belly and sometimes even other things. How does that make the sitting posture identical to buddhahood?
"Only the posture of zazen is the true living Buddha. It is the only posture which inspires true respect in everyone. Through it, I will be able to face anything." (Deshimaru: True Living Buddha)
This is not quite correct. The focus is not on "the lower belly" - it is on the hara (Japanese, dan tien Chinese) which is an energy point located in the lower belly. Focusing there draws energy to the hara, activating spiritual awareness over time. This is similar to but different from the Tibetan practice of drawing energy into the body's central channel (actually focusing on the hara may eventually do the same thing). So this is a bit of esoteric Buddhism that is in Zen from the start.Yes, they teach counting the breath, focusing on the lower belly and sometimes even other things.