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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:18 pm 
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dorjeshonnu wrote:
tobes wrote:
Sure. I agree with everything you say here. But what are the most important processes of relation?

I think it is pretty clear in the Abhidharma that they are the internal processes.
google this:

"the notion of a cut off or private (acausal) interiority is essentially meaningless"


You're trying to pin me into some kind of Cartesianism. Why?

I'm just saying: Look at the Abhidharma. Clearly, irrefutably, internal processes and factors are privileged.

This doesn't imply some cut off private interiority: of course the ontological predication which makes the moral psychology function properly (in the Abhidharma) is anatman.

It simply implies that mental factors such as cetana and sankhappa are hugely decisive in the development of wholesome trajectories, and fundamental to the development of prajna.

Antaman doesn't mean that subjects are devoid of internal processes, or that they are without importance. It just means that those internal processes necessarily refer to other internal and external processes.

:anjali:


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:28 pm 
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I think that is all true, but it doesn't really come to terms with what a teacher is for, or why one might be necessary.

The root of the word 'educate' means 'to bring forth' or 'bring out'. So even though it is true that what we seek is 'within', a teacher may be still be needed to bring it forth. There is no essential contradiction here.

In the vernacular, teachers are often really good for cutting through the crap, also. Human beings generally have a fair amount of it to cut through.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:09 pm 
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jeeprs wrote:
I think that is all true, but it doesn't really come to terms with what a teacher is for, or why one might be necessary.

The root of the word 'educate' means 'to bring forth' or 'bring out'. So even though it is true that what we seek is 'within', a teacher may be still be needed to bring it forth. There is no essential contradiction here.

In the vernacular, teachers are often really good for cutting through the crap, also. Human beings generally have a fair amount of it to cut through.


Yes, I really agree with this - even on a most basic level, a certain amount of cognitive development is necessary to even recognise that a process of awakening is possible; that presupposes literacy, analytical ability etc. Which presupposes education (and educators); you can't read the sutta's without knowing how to read!

How much more so for very nuanced metaphysics, very difficult practices, very hard to achieve goals?

Having said that, there is always a time when the student who is learning to read starts to actually read; and the student learning to think starts to actually think. That transition is worth thinking about - and I think it is at the heart of Rob's questions.

:anjali:


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:05 am 
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tobes wrote:
those internal processes necessarily refer to other internal and external processes.
clearer

internal and external are differentiated for the clarification of ayatana pairs
an ayatana pair appears as a single moment of contact carrying no such division into sides
similarly, the basic space of phenomena requires no such differentiation

phenomena appear with space, spaces appear with mind, minds appear no where
not even singularity or multiplicity have any fundamental relevance

in the matter of teachers and students
a moment of contact is a moment of wakening

a moment of wakening has no change
from teacher to student there is no direction or difference
from student to teacher there is no direction or difference
time and place hold the teaching, produced by a cause carrying no division into sides

in a time and place lacking a teacher, lacking a student
there is held no cause for the teaching

in a time and place lacking the teaching
no moments of contact are moments of wakening
wakefulness must be carried with birth
perfect and complete with the moment of birth
unestablished by cause, unafflicted by result

when and where the teaching is maintained
each moment of contact can be a moment of wakening
some moments of contact more wakeful than others
produced by a cause which carries
no division into sides


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:22 am 
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No one is pushed onto a teacher, it is not a must to be allowed by a club or so. But it is said that when one meets a genuine teacher, that itself makes the answer clear.

Meanwhile we can study, contemplate, meditate for ourselves *right now*. When we meet the teacher we need depends on own mind.

All the best with our practice.

O O ... :meditate:

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:46 am 
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http://viewonbuddhism.org/spiritual_teacher_guru.html

Through our habiyual mundain approach we can be misleaded.

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Last edited by muni on Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:55 am 
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dorjeshonnu wrote:
clearer
Clearer? You call what you posted clearer? :tongue: Shiiiiiit! You need at least Geshe qualification to understand that one! :smile:

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:26 pm 
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Quote:
Sorry if this offends anyone, but I've been taught to question and will continue to until I no longer need to.
Why apologise for something that you're suppose to do? If a place or people doesn't want to entertain your questioning or gets offended by it, just move on until you can find one that will, one isn't obligated to stay on nor respond to their reactions. I guess some who come on forums may be expecting a Sunday bake sale, especially on this forum but neither is it a ghetto. 'Difficult questions' creases foreheads I have been told but that's what happens when the engine haven't been started up for ages...

I am grateful to all who have been difficult, challenging & nasty, for thanks to them, it has quickened the journey by leaps and bounds, to move out of my comfort zones. It has taught me that samsara is not a place to get cosy with nor to bask in.

It's a long journey, may be a lonely one, at least from my personal experience and sometimes the answers will come from the least expected of places, people & circumstances. Sometimes, when one thinks that someone who's in robes or the elderly, would be fitting sources to find answers from and models for emulation, only to find that beneath all of that calm demeanour lies a tsunami wave waiting for the right trigger to unleash it or like a calm river with a sudden appearance of a croc.
Who knows? Epiphanies have been known to occur whilst bathing, eating, watching a sunset or a child offering a candy...

So I would encourage you to continue in your valiant journey of asking, seeking and knocking until you find what you're looking for.
If there's one thing I learn from truth seekers, and that is some of them actually care about the honest truth, willing to re-invent themselves and will leave no stone unturned. Not everyone's cup of tea but neither is a herd mentality any more appealing.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:50 pm 
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plwk wrote:
Why apologise for something that you're suppose to do? If a place or people doesn't want to entertain your questioning or gets offended by it, just move on until you can find one that will, one isn't obligated to stay on nor respond to their reactions.


Hi there. Mainly because the last decent-sized forum that covered Buddhism like this one does that I was on was E-Sangha, and after that went down I realised that there's not too many forums of this size around on the net for Buddhism. So seeing as I've not posted here much, the last thing I wanted to do was start getting on people's nerves and be left looking around again! Basically I had no idea what the reaction would be to questioning things like this, and at the same time I just generally don't like causing arguments, problems, etc.

I felt better though when I had a thought similar to : The Buddha started all this a long time ago and there's been quite a few arguments down the years over certain things, and I doubt he's that bothered. It's mainly people's reaction and taking offence that's the issue.

I still try not to wind people up though if possible. But yeah, agreed with what you're saying.

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