Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western Zen

Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby uan » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:09 pm

shel wrote:
Sex is easy to let go of



I'm curious, how are you defining letting go of sex? Is that celibacy? Is it that you are unbothered by other people's sexual morality or behavior? Have you let go of all desires relating to sex? Is it one aspect, or all aspects? And when you say it's easy, does that mean you've actually done it, or that you could if you wanted?
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby shel » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:32 pm

uan wrote:
shel wrote:
Sex is easy to let go of


I'm curious, how are you defining letting go of sex?

Causal sex, the only way it could be defined in relation to the discussion.

Is that celibacy?

The Zen masters in question are obviously not celibate. In America, of the Zen tradition only the OBC practices celibacy. Incidentally, a few years ago the abbot there stepped down because of romantic reasons...

Is it that you are unbothered by other people's sexual morality or behavior?

I guess you deleted it from my quote before reading "Betrayal, broken promises or vows, infidelity, and stuff like that is not easy to let go of."

Have you let go of all desires relating to sex?

No.

Is it one aspect, or all aspects?

You mean different positions or orientations?

And when you say it's easy, does that mean you've actually done it, or that you could if you wanted?

I've had casual sex or sex for gratification and nothing else. This appears to be the nature of the sexual relations that the Zen masters in question engaged in. Of course it could be claimed that these encounters were some form of 'expedient means', but that would still be accurately described as casual sex.


Your turn, Uan. :tongue:
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby uan » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:54 pm

shel wrote:
Your turn, Uan. :tongue:


thanks for the clarification. I'll respond a little later, I'm at work but can do it afterwards.
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby shel » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:21 pm

Take your time, I know how taxing backpedaling can be.
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby uan » Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:50 am

shel wrote:Take your time, I know how taxing backpedaling can be.


No backpedaling. I had started several times to answer, but needed some clarification - on a Buddhist forum letting go of sex can mean lots of things - there's even an active thread here on DW on the health benefits of celibacy.

I actually thought that when you asked about betrayal, broken promises, etc. that you were referring to the larger arena of life where those things happen, and have nothing to do with sex.

shel wrote:
uan wrote:
shel wrote:
Sex is easy to let go of, actually. Betrayal, broken promises or vows, infidelity, and stuff like that is not easy to let go of. Should it be?


yes (at least as easy as sex)


And this is true for you?


Yes.
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby shel » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:19 am

:tongue:
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby shel » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:18 pm

A poem by Chizuko Karen Joy Tasaka, published today on SweepingZen.com ( http://sweepingzen.com/to-joshu-sasaki- ... al-abuser/) ...

Roshi, you are a sexual abuser
“Come” you say as you pull me from a handshake onto your lap
“Open” you say as you push your hands between my knees, up my thighs
fondle my breasts
rub my genitals
french kiss me

you put my hand on your genitals
stroke your penis
jack you off?
this is sanzen?

my friend—she was inji
sex with roshi

she tried to say no
you demanded, demanded, demanded
demon demand the force of a tornado

sex with roshi
for whose best interest?

I told you I don’t like it.
I asked you why you do this?
You said, “nonattachment, nonattachment, you nonattachment"

I told you as shoji, “women very angry, very upset”
I asked you why you do this.
You said: “Be good daughter to roshi, and good wife to G. [her husband].
Roshi, that is incest So many women trying to shake the shame from their voices of
Sex with roshi

We came to you with the trust of a student
You were our teacher
You betrayed us
You violated our bodies
You rape our souls

You betrayed our previous student-teacher relationship
You abuse us as women
You emasculate our husbands and boyfriends

Roshi, you are a sexual abuser
Your nuns you make your sexual servants
Your monks and oshos are crippled with denial
Roshi, Sexual Abuser.

–By Chizuko Karen Joy Tasaka (1951-2010)


(My bold above)
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby dzogchungpa » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:38 pm

Another sad example of Christianized thinking :crying:
When will people learn?
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby shel » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:59 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:Another sad example of Christianized thinking :crying:
When will people learn?


Learning "nonattachment, nonattachment" takes time, and apparently a lot of sex. :sage:
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby dzogchungpa » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:26 pm

How about some Judaized thinking, to shake things up?
http://sweepingzen.com/misunderstandings-by-zoketsu-norman-fischer/
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby greentara » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:00 pm

Actually Judaism is one of the few religions where celibacy is not celibrated, sex seems to be quite ok within the confines of marriage. Sex taboos are more of a Christian idea. In Buddhism and Hinduism it's held up as an ideal on the path to liberation. So 'Judaized thinking' doesn't quite hit the spot.
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby dzogchungpa » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:07 pm

greentara wrote:So 'Judaized thinking' doesn't quite hit the spot.

I wasn't being entirely serious :smile:
If I recall correctly, theres a fair amount of nonmarital sex in the Torah.
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby greentara » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:13 pm

Yes on reflection I think you're right.
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby tobes » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:20 am

shel wrote:A poem by Chizuko Karen Joy Tasaka, published today on SweepingZen.com ( http://sweepingzen.com/to-joshu-sasaki- ... al-abuser/) ...

Roshi, you are a sexual abuser
“Come” you say as you pull me from a handshake onto your lap
“Open” you say as you push your hands between my knees, up my thighs
fondle my breasts
rub my genitals
french kiss me

you put my hand on your genitals
stroke your penis
jack you off?
this is sanzen?

my friend—she was inji
sex with roshi

she tried to say no
you demanded, demanded, demanded
demon demand the force of a tornado

sex with roshi
for whose best interest?

I told you I don’t like it.
I asked you why you do this?
You said, “nonattachment, nonattachment, you nonattachment"

I told you as shoji, “women very angry, very upset”
I asked you why you do this.
You said: “Be good daughter to roshi, and good wife to G. [her husband].
Roshi, that is incest So many women trying to shake the shame from their voices of
Sex with roshi

We came to you with the trust of a student
You were our teacher
You betrayed us
You violated our bodies
You rape our souls

You betrayed our previous student-teacher relationship
You abuse us as women
You emasculate our husbands and boyfriends

Roshi, you are a sexual abuser
Your nuns you make your sexual servants
Your monks and oshos are crippled with denial
Roshi, Sexual Abuser.

–By Chizuko Karen Joy Tasaka (1951-2010)


(My bold above)



That's pretty damn compelling.

Not sure how this thread is going to get past it....

:anjali:
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Astus » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:51 am

shel wrote:A poem by Chizuko Karen Joy Tasaka, published today on SweepingZen.com ( http://sweepingzen.com/to-joshu-sasaki- ... al-abuser/) ...

Roshi, you are a sexual abuser
“Come” you say as you pull me from a handshake onto your lap
“Open” you say as you push your hands between my knees, up my thighs
fondle my breasts
rub my genitals
french kiss me

you put my hand on your genitals
stroke your penis
jack you off?
this is sanzen?

my friend—she was inji
sex with roshi

she tried to say no
you demanded, demanded, demanded
demon demand the force of a tornado

sex with roshi
for whose best interest?

I told you I don’t like it.
I asked you why you do this?
You said, “nonattachment, nonattachment, you nonattachment"

I told you as shoji, “women very angry, very upset”
I asked you why you do this.
You said: “Be good daughter to roshi, and good wife to G. [her husband].
Roshi, that is incest So many women trying to shake the shame from their voices of
Sex with roshi

We came to you with the trust of a student
You were our teacher
You betrayed us
You violated our bodies
You rape our souls

You betrayed our previous student-teacher relationship
You abuse us as women
You emasculate our husbands and boyfriends

Roshi, you are a sexual abuser
Your nuns you make your sexual servants
Your monks and oshos are crippled with denial
Roshi, Sexual Abuser.

–By Chizuko Karen Joy Tasaka (1951-2010)


(My bold above)



Thanks for bringing it here.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Simon E. » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:25 am

I see no evidence of " Christianization " there , just a heartfelt plea for human decency and respect.
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Jnana » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:38 am

Simon E. wrote:I see no evidence of " Christianization " there , just a heartfelt plea for human decency and respect.

Indeed.
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby conebeckham » Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:40 pm

Irony alert, guys. :spy:
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Jikan » Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:00 pm

uan,

I'd thought casual sex was consensual sex. Is it still casual sex if one party is coerced or worse?
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:56 pm

conebeckham wrote:Irony alert, guys. :spy:

Indeed.
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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