oushi wrote: One cannot deceive himself about his own suffering
It happens constantly.
How would you do that? As I said, you can try to deceive others, but how does one deceive himself? I mean, if you can do it like that, what is the problem? If you cannot find your suffering, with what can Buddha help you? In becoming a guru?
Your answer looks really cool, but I'm afraid your chase after nice form, covered reasoning. The whole think is, you cannot deceive yourself in the matter or your own suffering, and if you can, you do not have a problem.
Ofc, it is easier to follow a teacher that will try to achieve it, by convincing you that this world is a dream and phantom.... No doubt that 99% of society will tell you that he is trying to deceive you.
gregkavarnos wrote:Of course they can. Sentient beings do it every single moment of their existence (until enlightenment) that's why we have samsara.
Hmmm, if in every single moment of their existence people deceive themselves that there is no suffering, how can they know that there is suffering? Certainly they fail to deceive themselves, that is why they know about it. And that is precisely what I stated before. One cannot deceive himself about his own suffering.
No doubt that you can remove part of your suffering with drugs, people do it all over the planet. Maybe even you use painkillers from time to time. Is it deceiving yourself about the lack of paint or removing the pain?
gregkavarnos wrote:Really? Well, you obviously have not been paying attention to what is going on around this forum then, have you? I can, offhandedly, think of three specific individuals that deceived themselves (about what they believed) about their enlightenment/awakening.
How do you know that they deceive themselves and are not just trying to deceive others? And how can they prove to others that they do not suffer? If awakening is a magical thingy that brings superpowers and super states of the mind, then you will have all sort of magicians popping up. But if it is all down to suffering, what good is there in deceiving others when you know you suffer?
gregkavarnos wrote:What are you talking about?
About "teachers" that believes in the process to such a degree, that they can negate extinction of suffering because they are "transmitted" while still experience suffering. In simple words, if an authority says I am awakened, and gives me a paper confirming it, then I have to be awakened. Now while I am awakened I still suffer, so I conclude that there is no extinction of suffering after awakening and I pass this info to my students.