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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:36 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Matylda wrote:
as for lustful sleaze bags sounds very much Western and very much christian.. almost like Christian fundamentalism... :D it is what we are talking here about...
Nonsense. Did you read the Sutta quotes I posted? Very eastern (Indian, to be exact) and almost like a Buddhist fundamentalism. If you refuse to see the discussion from any position except your own then obviously you will continue to make misiformed remarks like this one.


yes of course I have seen but they are pretty irrelevant to zen, didn't you know? just try to go along zen teaching and finally consider that it is a short path to liberation... what you have written before about limiting the scope of suffering completely does not apply to those teachings, since there is no suffering to consider, it is only an illusion from the zen point of view and one gets very fast response from a zen master when one picks up the subject of suffering from the zen point of view... to strip one from the wrong notion of illusion is big responsibility of zen master.. it is nonsense to apply persistently lower teachings and notions to the supreme path of zen :)


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:39 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Matylda wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
If this is your idea of what skillful functioning of the enlightened mind looks like, then you have a very idiosyncratic notion of Zen. It would certainly be laughed out of most temples in China and Korea and I suspect Japan, as well.


I do not know why all of sudden China and Korea are called for, but there are problems as well.. and much bigger problems. As for zen yes it is idiosyncratic .. that is true, it cannot be sane if it is path for only one life to become a buddha :)
Dan said that YOU HAVE a very idiosyncratic notion of Zen, not that Zen is idiosyncratic. It pays to actually read and understand what you are responding to.


You do not have to worry about my reading ability greg :) i understand and just use the word freely to point out something important what is very difficult for many to see clearly...


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:40 pm 
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jeeprs wrote:
And the idea that the whole discussion can take place from a kind of 'Buddha's-eye-view', above the whole fray of human weaknesses and faults, and untainted by moral corruption, can easily be used to justify immoral behaviours - as it is in this thread.


Well said.

It also ignores all the canonical literature, which Zen claims as its own, which goes on at length discussing transgressions, precepts, wholesome karma, unwholesome karma, etc...

People can dismiss all of it though by deferring to a purported higher wisdom which they either explicitly or implicitly claim to possess. If your Master, who you claim is enlightened, possesses such wisdom then in the Zen context they are in a privileged position to employ "miraculous function" 妙用 with which to prompt awakening in others (this can include otherwise irrational and immoral actions).

Your own liberation is in their hands and as an article of faith you depend on them as a prerequisite for liberation, hence the excuses for reprehensible behaviour. You have faith that the individual in question is just educating people in unorthodox albeit worthwhile ways, and predictably make charitable excuses for them and/or attack anyone criticizing them for failing to understand what is really going on.

Basically, people who make excuses for such immoral behaviour can claim to be unattached to phenomena all they like, but they are actually quite clearly emotionally invested in their teachers and organizations. The psychology of past investment is key to understanding their behaviour -- they've put in a lot of emotion, energy and perhaps material and monetary resources into their religious pursuit, master and spiritual family, so pulling away becomes all that harder when you have to admit failure and loss.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:44 pm 
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Matylda wrote:
yes of course I have seen but they are pretty irrelevant to zen, didn't you know? just try to go along zen teaching and finally consider that it is a short path to liberation... what you have written before about limiting the scope of suffering completely does not apply to those teachings, since there is no suffering to consider, it is only an illusion from the zen point of view and one gets very fast response from a zen master when one picks up the subject of suffering from the zen point of view... to strip one from the wrong notion of illusion is big responsibility of zen master.. it is nonsense to apply persistently lower teachings and notions to the supreme path of zen :)
You said the view I was proposing is Western Christian Fundamentalism and I pointed out that it was Eastern Buddhism, so I fail to see what you have just posted has to do with the discussion. It is obviously just another (failed) smokescreen.

And, by the way, many Vajrayana practitioners consider the Zen path a Hinayana path. So let's not continue with the one upmanship because it leads nowhere positive. Let me just say though, that the next time you disparage our Buddhist brothers and sisters, you will receive a formal warning and/or suspension.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:19 pm 
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Huseng wrote:
jeeprs wrote:
And the idea that the whole discussion can take place from a kind of 'Buddha's-eye-view', above the whole fray of human weaknesses and faults, and untainted by moral corruption, can easily be used to justify immoral behaviours - as it is in this thread.


Well said.

It also ignores all the canonical literature, which Zen claims as its own, which goes on at length discussing transgressions, precepts, wholesome karma, unwholesome karma, etc...

People can dismiss all of it though by deferring to a purported higher wisdom which they either explicitly or implicitly claim to possess. If your Master, who you claim is enlightened, possesses such wisdom then in the Zen context they are in a privileged position to employ "miraculous function" 妙用 with which to prompt awakening in others (this can include otherwise irrational and immoral actions).

Your own liberation is in their hands and as an article of faith you depend on them as a prerequisite for liberation, hence the excuses for reprehensible behaviour. You have faith that the individual in question is just educating people in unorthodox albeit worthwhile ways, and predictably make charitable excuses for them and/or attack anyone criticizing them for failing to understand what is really going on.

Basically, people who make excuses for such immoral behaviour can claim to be unattached to phenomena all they like, but they are actually quite clearly emotionally invested in their teachers and organizations. The psychology of past investment is key to understanding their behaviour -- they've put in a lot of emotion, energy and perhaps material and monetary resources into their religious pursuit, master and spiritual family, so pulling away becomes all that harder when you have to admit failure and loss.


Your own liberation is in their hands and as an article of faith you depend on them as a prerequisite for liberation it is absolutely true.. I think there is no need to defend those who committed in eyes of others an offense.. just call police, it is what I am repeating continually.. In Japan it would be the case... you are in Japan so you can read about monks who got imprisoned... there is no other more simple way.. and you cannot see anyone defending them or making excuses.. right? just look and say about it..

So considering all dangers one has to consider who is claiming to be a zen master in the west :)


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:29 pm 
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Why vajrayana folks consider zen to be hinayana? It is ridiculous and false.. then is it fine with their vajra root downfalls to disparage zen like this? Or is it based on lack of knowledge about zen? I just ask because of curiosity since it is anyway off topic. You do not have to answer :)


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:58 pm 
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Matylda wrote:
Why vajrayana folks consider zen to be hinayana? It is ridiculous and false.. then is it fine with their vajra root downfalls to disparage zen like this? Or is it based on lack of knowledge about zen? I just ask because of curiosity since it is anyway off topic. You do not have to answer :)


:good:

This is only the case for some Vajrayana folks, but even so, it's unfortunate.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:05 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Matylda wrote:
yes of course I have seen but they are pretty irrelevant to zen, didn't you know? just try to go along zen teaching and finally consider that it is a short path to liberation... what you have written before about limiting the scope of suffering completely does not apply to those teachings, since there is no suffering to consider, it is only an illusion from the zen point of view and one gets very fast response from a zen master when one picks up the subject of suffering from the zen point of view... to strip one from the wrong notion of illusion is big responsibility of zen master.. it is nonsense to apply persistently lower teachings and notions to the supreme path of zen :)
You said the view I was proposing is Western Christian Fundamentalism and I pointed out that it was Eastern Buddhism, so I fail to see what you have just posted has to do with the discussion. It is obviously just another (failed) smokescreen.



Smokescreens, attachment to views, cultural miscommunication - I don't know, but here's something from the great Caodong (Soto) master Hongzhi, who was a favourite of Dogen, incidentally (as well as a compiler of the Book of Serenity and one of the seminal Song Chan masters).

(boldface - mine)

Quote:
Patch-robed monks make their thinking dry and cool and rest from the remnants of conditioning. Persistently brush up and sharpen this bit of the field. Directly cut through all the overgrown grass. Reach the limit in all directions without defiling even one atom. Spiritual and bright, vast and lustrous, illuminating fully what is before you, directly attain the shining light and clarity that cannot attach to a single defilement. Immediately tug and pull back the ox's nose. Of course his horns are imposing and he stomps around like a beast, yet he never damages people's sprouts or grain. Wandering around, accept how it goes. Accepting how it goes, wander around. Do not be bounded by or settle into any place. Then the plough will break open the ground in the field of the empty kalpa. Proceeding in this manner, each event will be unobscured, each realm will appear complete. One contemplation of the ten thousand years is beginning not to dwell in appearances. Thus it is said that the mind-ground con­ tains every seed and the universal rain makes them all sprout. When awakening blossoms, desires fade, and Bodhi's fruit is perfected self


The Ox's nose refers to the"wild" energy aspect of the mind as per the Ox-herding pictures.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:25 pm 
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Quote:
The Ox's nose refers to the"wild" energy aspect of the mind as per the Ox-herding pictures.


so look at the last picture of the ten pictures, when with bottle of wine he mingles among common people in a market place.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:37 pm 
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Matylda wrote:
Quote:
The Ox's nose refers to the"wild" energy aspect of the mind as per the Ox-herding pictures.


so look at the last picture of the ten pictures, when with bottle of wine he mingles among common people in a market place.


You keep shifting instead of addressing what is put to you, Matylda, but yes, he enters the market-place with a gourd, filled with what? With helping hands, not with harming hands.

Shodo Harada says:

Quote:
Entering the Marketplace with Extended Hands is about going into society, entering the whirl of humanity, and offering help with our own hands. But if we do it without a clear center, we will be tossed and turned and stained, because there will still be a small self operating. If there is an essence alive there, we will not be thrown around when we enter society; we will be sturdy and clear.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:23 pm 
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Matylda wrote:
Zen master responsibility is to take away any feeling of security.. otherwise we are to stubborn to start any journey, even if we think we already started it is mostly just change of our own opinions... still there is force of deluded mind behind it...


After taking away your feeling of security, you can shag people right? Well you can shag all you want, you are not enlightened yet or even close to it for your mind is still bound conceptually. Delusional fool.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:31 pm 
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Matylda wrote:
Why vajrayana folks consider zen to be hinayana? It is ridiculous and false.
For the same reason that many zen folks consider Theravada a "lower" path: bigotry, ignorance, ego, feelings of inferiority... I guess the reason is not really much of a surprise is it?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:49 pm 
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The Lotus Sutra in chapter 14 says,

"Bodhisattvas Mahasattvas must not regard women's bodies as objects of desire and speak Dharma for them. They do not take delight in looking at women. If they enter the homes of others, they do not speak with young girls, maidens, widows, and so forth. ... If they speak the Dharma for women, they do not smile or laugh and let their teeth show, nor do they expose their chests. Even for the sake of the Dharma, they do not become familiar with them, much less for the sake of other matters!"

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:37 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Matylda wrote:
Why vajrayana folks consider zen to be hinayana? It is ridiculous and false.
For the same reason that many zen folks consider Theravada a "lower" path: bigotry, ignorance, ego, feelings of inferiority... I guess the reason is not really much of a surprise is it?


It is only your imputation that zen folks look down on Theravada greg.. there is nothing like this and you know it well... and I have nev er claimed it. But you put pretty clearly what vajrayana folk is about concerning zen.. :) it is very interesting topic anyway but pretty off the topic here..


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:44 pm 
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Astus wrote:
The Lotus Sutra in chapter 14 says,

"Bodhisattvas Mahasattvas must not regard women's bodies as objects of desire and speak Dharma for them. They do not take delight in looking at women. If they enter the homes of others, they do not speak with young girls, maidens, widows, and so forth. ... If they speak the Dharma for women, they do not smile or laugh and let their teeth show, nor do they expose their chests. Even for the sake of the Dharma, they do not become familiar with them, much less for the sake of other matters!"


Well so now we have to remove all women from buddhist centers... :D there are plenty of teachers on YT speaking to the mixed audience very often mostly women who smile, and make jokes and so on, both Western and Asian teachers... what to do with that???


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:46 pm 
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LastLegend wrote:
Matylda wrote:
Zen master responsibility is to take away any feeling of security.. otherwise we are to stubborn to start any journey, even if we think we already started it is mostly just change of our own opinions... still there is force of deluded mind behind it...


After taking away your feeling of security, you can shag people right? Well you can shag all you want, you are not enlightened yet or even close to it for your mind is still bound conceptually. Delusional fool.


Then you have to go on your own, crutches are gone... nothing to rely on...


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:14 pm 
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@Matylda, another question. Do you know of any living, authentic Zen masters, according to your understanding of what a Zen master is?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:17 pm 
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May I ask a question of Matylda?

Matylda, some of your opinions on the infallibility of a Roshi, and some other opinions, do not match what I have heard from some Japanese Soto Roshis.

Do the opinions you are stating represent mosly your own personal opinion? The opinion of all or most Soto Zen Roshi in Japan? Only some or a minority of Roshi? If so, would you tell us which lineage you may be closest to in these opinions, for example, Harade-Yastani lineage?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:21 pm 
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Dan74 wrote:
Matylda wrote:
Quote:
The Ox's nose refers to the"wild" energy aspect of the mind as per the Ox-herding pictures.


so look at the last picture of the ten pictures, when with bottle of wine he mingles among common people in a market place.


You keep shifting instead of addressing what is put to you, Matylda, but yes, he enters the market-place with a gourd, filled with what? With helping hands, not with harming hands.

Shodo Harada says:

Quote:
Entering the Marketplace with Extended Hands is about going into society, entering the whirl of humanity, and offering help with our own hands. But if we do it without a clear center, we will be tossed and turned and stained, because there will still be a small self operating. If there is an essence alive there, we will not be thrown around when we enter society; we will be sturdy and clear.


I am not shifting anything Dan.. look we are talking about zen masters who are enlightened. please check the posts, we talked not about just zen practitioners who are still deluded even if they had some sort of insight.. then you pick up a picture of immature beginner who must control himself and is still blind...

Well as for comment from Sogenji roshi... of course it sounds correctly, and then look at the history.. already number 2 in China ended up his career in whore houses and liquor shops, and he was not preaching there. His arm was lost in a fist fight with mobsters... he was in a real market with all its dangers.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:22 pm 
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dzogchungpa wrote:
@Matylda, another question. Do you know of any living, authentic Zen masters, according to your understanding of what a Zen master is?



yes


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