On Aro gTér

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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Heruka » Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:36 am

conebeckham touches the central point to this topic,

speaking in very general way, gtermas in the A ro sense,if i recal were mind gtermas, which in and of themselves are not special in any real way. many minor level tertons can have mind gtermas, the really great ones have a series of three types of gtermas to reveal, from certain sources, which reveal the authenticity and qualifications of the gtermas. these three are teachings of guru padmasambhava, of avalokitesvara and those of the great perfection, these can be revealed by mind, earth or sky. there are ways to check or examin a terton forsure.

the argument about lineage is somewhat a red herring here, as gtermas are to keep the transmission fresh and the lineage short, longevity is no appeal to authority, authenticity or tradition. the lama gongdu explains the purpose behind gtermas.

if Aro gTer ( the 'A' speaking corpse ) claim gtermas revealed as mind transmission, then they also must claim to be reincarnation of close disciple of guru rinpoche no?
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Yudron » Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:29 am

There a few problem for me with the story line of our beloved Nyingma lineage. A part that does not make sense to me is that all lines of tulkus have to be traced back to the time of Guru Rinpoche and Vimalamitra. The promise of Dzogchen is the power swiftly bring folks to Buddhahood. So, there should be new Buddhas frequently, and they themselves would naturally emanate Nirmakayas. Why then are all recognized tulkus from a line of incarnations going back over a thousand years?

This side issue has little to do with Ngakpa Chogyam, who publicly says he remembers the ter of his teacher from his past life--Aro Lingma. He says Aro Lingma, who there is no historical record of, had previous incarnations going all the way back to Yeshe Tsogyal, and probably beyond. Behind the scenes, he says he is a terton himself.
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:26 am

Yudron wrote:This side issue has little to do with Ngakpa Chogyam, who publicly says he remembers the ter of his teacher from his past life--Aro Lingma. He says Aro Lingma, who there is no historical record of, had previous incarnations going all the way back to Yeshe Tsogyal, and probably beyond. Behind the scenes, he says he is a terton himself.
And this is where all the problems begin.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Simon E. » Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:58 am

For whom is it a problem ?
Its not a problem for the Aro apparently.
So its a problem for everyone else...if problems are what they want.
Or should we be annoyed as An Awful Warning to others ? Or on principle ?
The Aro has a core membership of a few scores of people. None of whom were kidnapped or press ganged. Many of them have been members for decades and appear happy with the fact.

Why should anyone else care ?
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:28 pm

Nobody asked you to care.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Simon E. » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:32 pm

Well thats ok then. I am quite happy to franchise out my caring in the issue to others.
I'll leave it by the back door. Anyone is free to add it to their own. :smile:

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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby heart » Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:54 pm

Simon E. wrote:For whom is it a problem ?
Its not a problem for the Aro apparently.
So its a problem for everyone else...if problems are what they want.
Or should we be annoyed as An Awful Warning to others ? Or on principle ?
The Aro has a core membership of a few scores of people. None of whom were kidnapped or press ganged. Many of them have been members for decades and appear happy with the fact.

Why should anyone else care ?


I don't know Simon if you ever spent time with an Aro person? They are incredibly upset that their teachings and their teachers are not accepted and respected by all Tibetan Buddhists. They blame the traditional Tibetan teachers to be racist of them because they are westerners. So, it is a bigger issue for them then their merry behavior might reflect.

Personally I feel a bit ambivalent about this subject, I used to be pretty negative but these days I feel there are a lot of worse things in this world to get upset about. Also in Tulku Thondrup's book about the terma tradition it is mentioned that sometimes practitioners have meditation experiences that if they are written down and practiced will cause neither harm nor benefit.

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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Simon E. » Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:59 pm

Well if any members of the Aro want to add my caring about the issue to their pile they are welcome too.
I am an equal opportunities not- carer.

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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby byamspa » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:17 pm

heart wrote:
I don't know Simon if you ever spent time with an Aro person? They are incredibly upset that their teachings and their teachers are not accepted and respected by all Tibetan Buddhists. They blame the traditional Tibetan teachers to be racist of them because they are westerners. So, it is a bigger issue for them then their merry behavior might reflect.

/magnus


That explains an encounter i had with someone I didn't know very well when i questioned how they were qualified to give refuge vows. They got defensive and accused me of being racist, when i was simply questioning lineage and qualifications. I knew nothing about them and was more curious than anything.

I for one, hope they are right, even if there is no substantial proof of things. A lot was destroyed in the diaspora, a lot we may never know in full.
Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Yudron » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:03 pm

byamspa wrote:
heart wrote:
I don't know Simon if you ever spent time with an Aro person? They are incredibly upset that their teachings and their teachers are not accepted and respected by all Tibetan Buddhists. They blame the traditional Tibetan teachers to be racist of them because they are westerners. So, it is a bigger issue for them then their merry behavior might reflect.

/magnus


That explains an encounter i had with someone I didn't know very well when i questioned how they were qualified to give refuge vows. They got defensive and accused me of being racist, when i was simply questioning lineage and qualifications. I knew nothing about them and was more curious than anything.

I for one, hope they are right, even if there is no substantial proof of things. A lot was destroyed in the diaspora, a lot we may never know in full.


Defensiveness would be a red flag, even if that person was technically qualified to give refuge. Personal defensiveness gradually diminishes as one practices any kind of Buddhism.
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Yudron » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:11 pm

Simon E. wrote:For whom is it a problem ?
Its not a problem for the Aro apparently.
So its a problem for everyone else...if problems are what they want.
Or should we be annoyed as An Awful Warning to others ? Or on principle ?
The Aro has a core membership of a few scores of people. None of whom were kidnapped or press ganged. Many of them have been members for decades and appear happy with the fact.


And they joyfully begat website after website, creating perhaps the largest internet footprint of any Buddhist teacher.
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Simon E. » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:21 pm

And you have just increased that footprint... :smile:
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby sdw » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:34 pm

Yudron wrote:This side issue has little to do with Ngakpa Chogyam, who publicly says he remembers the ter of his teacher from his past life--Aro Lingma. He says Aro Lingma, who there is no historical record of, had previous incarnations going all the way back to Yeshe Tsogyal, and probably beyond. Behind the scenes, he says he is a terton himself.

Hello, Yudron

I am wondering when you heard Ngak'chang Rinpoche say he was a terton. I have not heard this. (I'm not trying to be confrontational, I just genuinely have not heard him say this.)


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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby sdw » Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:04 pm

Yudron wrote:
Simon E. wrote:For whom is it a problem ?
Its not a problem for the Aro apparently.
So its a problem for everyone else...if problems are what they want.
Or should we be annoyed as An Awful Warning to others ? Or on principle ?
The Aro has a core membership of a few scores of people. None of whom were kidnapped or press ganged. Many of them have been members for decades and appear happy with the fact.


And they joyfully begat website after website, creating perhaps the largest internet footprint of any Buddhist teacher.

The purpose of the main website (http://www.aroencyclopaedia.org) is to be a repository of information about the ngak'phang tradition. Making this tradition more known & preserving it is what Ngak'chang Rinpoche & Khandro Déchen see as their main task - even more important than preserving the Aro tradition specifically. In this they have been quite successful. When that website first appeared, sometime around 15 years ago, the tradition was almost unknown in the West. Now people are asking their lamas for ngak'phang ordination.

What some people see as an unseemly emphasis on robes & ornaments is just a way of making the tradition more visible to people. Because it can be of great benefit, especially in the West, where most serious practitioners don't have the ability (or desire in many cases) to leave jobs & families & become monastics.


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Last edited by sdw on Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Yudron » Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:05 pm

sdw wrote:
Yudron wrote:This side issue has little to do with Ngakpa Chogyam, who publicly says he remembers the ter of his teacher from his past life--Aro Lingma. He says Aro Lingma, who there is no historical record of, had previous incarnations going all the way back to Yeshe Tsogyal, and probably beyond. Behind the scenes, he says he is a terton himself.

Hello, Yudron

I am wondering when you heard Ngak'chang Rinpoche say he was a terton. I have not heard this. (I'm not trying to be confrontational, I just genuinely have not heard him say this.)


Shardröl


Well, you would know better than anyone what he is saying currently.

When I asked him about it, many years ago at a bookstore talk in California, he strongly denied that he was a terton. But credible people have posted here that he is now quietly acknowledging that he view himself that way. If you are unequivocally saying that is not true, then I would take your word for it.

Although it may seem like a bigger claim that he himself a terton, I have been told it is a bigger claim to traditionalists to say that a non-terton tulku can propagate a terma lineage he remembers receiving in a past life. I'm not a scholar, but I have been told this is unprecedented.

These are not the issues that personally came to give me the hee bee gee bees about him. It is the self-aggrandizing and exaggeration on his web sites that make me uncomfortable, as well as history of having threatened legal action against one of his own lamas that put an end to my former affection for him. By exaggeration I mean, for example saying that he wad practiced three ngondros during a certain period of his life, but failing to say that he never finished any of them. Or, making a big hoopla about the endorsement implied by the various gifts that lamas have given him, failing to note that lamas frequently give gifts as a thank you or a friendly token. Or saying that LTR gave him the name Ngakchang Rinpoche, when he probably just told him that Ngakchang was a better work to use than Ngakpa for what he was doing... according to David Chapman he was not given the Rinpoche title by LTR. That kind of thing--like a politician or PR person, twisting little things to make himself look better..

I personally would still have affection for him if he still called himself Ngakpa Chogyam or Ngakchang Chogyam, had one or two websites, and just said the basic truth about himself. He is a practitioner who had the tenacity and good fortune to study with a number of great lamas over abut 40 years. He believes he was recognized as a tulku by a couple of great lamas, but never formally enthroned, and those lamas never told anyone but him. A couple of his lamas seem to have been okay with him teaching. He vividly remembers a past life in which he was a male member of a small matrifocal ter gar in Tibet, and wants to share what he remembered. He found that practicing Dzogchen was more valuable than finishing all the numbers of a ngondro. All that could be really positive, interesting, and pretty damn cool! For me, personally, the exaggeration, etc... undermines all this good stuff. It's was really disappointing for me to watch things degenerate over the past 20 years into what appears to be an ocean of pride. But, on the other hand, it has been a great cautionary tale. I do not speak for me lamas (who do not use the internet or see his PR sites.)
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby byamspa » Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:41 pm

So to those who are in the know, is the 'Aro' in Aro gter related at all to Aro Yeshe Jungney?

http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/Aro_Yeshe_Jungne
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby pemachophel » Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:44 pm

As far as I know, "Rinpoche" is not a title given by one Lama to another. It is a title of deepest respect offered by a student to his or her Teacher. It is not a credential in the same way Tulku or Khenpo are credentials. Just my two cents.

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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby heart » Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:42 pm

byamspa wrote:So to those who are in the know, is the 'Aro' in Aro gter related at all to Aro Yeshe Jungney?

http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/Aro_Yeshe_Jungne


No.

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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby dzogchungpa » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:09 am

Yudron wrote:
sdw wrote:
Yudron wrote:This side issue has little to do with Ngakpa Chogyam, who publicly says he remembers the ter of his teacher from his past life--Aro Lingma. He says Aro Lingma, who there is no historical record of, had previous incarnations going all the way back to Yeshe Tsogyal, and probably beyond. Behind the scenes, he says he is a terton himself.

Hello, Yudron

I am wondering when you heard Ngak'chang Rinpoche say he was a terton. I have not heard this. (I'm not trying to be confrontational, I just genuinely have not heard him say this.)


Shardröl


Well, you would know better than anyone what he is saying currently...


Is there some way we could get the man to respond himself? If anyone reading this is his student, please ask him.
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby sdw » Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:31 am

I have been a student of Ngak'chang Rinpoche for 20+ years and I have never heard him say he was a terton. That's all I can offer on this topic. He does not read Internet forums.


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