American "Zen"

Re: American "Zen"

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:18 pm

@Jikan
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/mistake
http://tinyurl.com/d8wekdn
If you think 'mistake' or '**ck up' are the right words to use here, fine. I don't think so.
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: American "Zen"

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:14 pm

Huifeng wrote:I recall a discussion ...

Ah, so there really was a volume III, very interesting, thank you. It's kind of sad that it's not available, I'm sure it was a real page-turner.
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: American "Zen"

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:16 pm

Astus wrote:To give my personal favourites: Jeff Shore, Anzan Hoshin and Shohaku Okumura (who is Japanese but has a community in Indiana and speaks English).

OK, thanks, I will check them out.
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: American "Zen"

Postby Jikan » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:15 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:@Jikan
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/mistake
http://tinyurl.com/d8wekdn
If you think 'mistake' or '**ck up' are the right words to use here, fine. I don't think so.


There are no adequate words to generalize the kinds of abuse we're talking about. So no, I don't think "mistake" is adequate (although the OED definition is more adequate than the yahoo definition you cite). There is no "right word."
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Re: American "Zen"

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:59 pm

Jikan wrote: So no, I don't think "mistake" is adequate (although the OED definition is more adequate than the yahoo definition you cite). There is no "right word."

OK, you're off the hook, but for the record, the yahoo site uses the American Heritage Dictionary which is an absolutely first rate dictionary of American English.
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: American "Zen"

Postby Wayfarer » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:57 pm

Jikan wrote:
jeeprs wrote: Furthermore the quality and standard of debate on ZFI is just as good as on this forum.


By what criteria? I'd like to know so DW can learn from the successes of others.


It's well moderated, threads generally stay on topic, the tone is generally civil, and there are several contributors with expert knowledge of East Asian Buddhism, who take the time to write detailed posts, as well as a number of Zen teachers who contribute. When I was enrolled in Buddhist studies, I posted a few questions about scholarly topics and got very useful advice on where to look for information.

Both these forums (i.e. ZFI and Dharmawheel) are very good in my view, I learn a lot from them and enjoy interacting with others who are knowledgeable about the subject.
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Re: American "Zen"

Postby Wayfarer » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:23 am

The editorial in the Spring 2013 edition of Tricycle discusses the Joshu Sasaki matter (may require subscription).
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Re: American "Zen"

Postby Astus » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:55 am

jeeprs wrote:The editorial in the Spring 2013 edition of Tricycle discusses the Joshu Sasaki matter (may require subscription).


Just as in everyday life, the solution for ignorance is education. If those students knew even the basics of Buddhism they would have been aware that sex is not part of Zen training. So, while the teacher is guilty of sexual misconduct and power abuse, the disciples are guilty of being ignorants.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: American "Zen"

Postby shel » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:00 pm

That's not what they teach in "American Zen" however. This was posted yesterday at Zen Forum International:

Nonin Chowaney wrote:
shikantazen wrote:Eastern Spiritual practices recommend celibacy or at least some sexual restraint. They say that if you lose your sexual energy (semen) frequently (more than once/twice every week), it could affect your progress in meditation.

Does Zen have such a thing? Is sexual restraint required to make progress?


No.

Hands palm-to-palm


The signature line for Nonin reads:
Soto Zen Buddhist Priest. Transmitted Dharma Heir of Dainin Katagiri Roshi.
Abbot and Head Teacher, Nebraska Zen Center / Heartland Temple, Omaha, Nebraska, USA


It's well know that Dainin Katagiri Roshi also slept with students while married, so Nonin's views are not surprising.
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Re: American "Zen"

Postby shel » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:08 pm

jeeprs wrote:
Jikan wrote:
jeeprs wrote: Furthermore the quality and standard of debate on ZFI is just as good as on this forum.


By what criteria? I'd like to know so DW can learn from the successes of others.


It's well moderated, threads generally stay on topic, the tone is generally civil, and there are several contributors with expert knowledge of East Asian Buddhism, who take the time to write detailed posts, as well as a number of Zen teachers who contribute. When I was enrolled in Buddhist studies, I posted a few questions about scholarly topics and got very useful advice on where to look for information.

Both these forums (i.e. ZFI and Dharmawheel) are very good in my view, I learn a lot from them and enjoy interacting with others who are knowledgeable about the subject.


There isn't much debate left at ZFI anymore. It seems to now be following the 'online sangha' model. In this model Zen teachers, and the admins, post their views on things and everyone else agrees or asks for clarification, and then expresses their gratitude to the teachers. Any dissonate voices are promptly silenced. Indeed a couple of the moderators are from Treeleaf.

Religious groupthink explains how people like Sasaki and Shimano can do their thing for decades without interference.
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Re: American "Zen"

Postby dzogchungpa » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:21 pm

Astus wrote:... the disciples are guilty of being ignorants.

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/guilty
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: American "Zen"

Postby Astus » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:46 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Astus wrote:... the disciples are guilty of being ignorants.

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/guilty


"deserving of blame"
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: American "Zen"

Postby dzogchungpa » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:59 pm

@Astus Your post seemed to imply that there is a kind of symmetry as far as guilt or blame is concerned between the teacher and his disciples in this case.
Is that what you meant?
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: American "Zen"

Postby Astus » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:26 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:@Astus Your post seemed to imply that there is a kind of symmetry as far as guilt or blame is concerned between the teacher and his disciples in this case.
Is that what you meant?


That was my intention, yes. Although we can say that the teacher is the one who misbehaved and took advantage of his students, the students were also at fault in neglecting the study of the Dharma.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: American "Zen"

Postby dzogchungpa » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:07 pm

Astus wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:@Astus Your post seemed to imply that there is a kind of symmetry as far as guilt or blame is concerned between the teacher and his disciples in this case.
Is that what you meant?


That was my intention, yes. Although we can say that the teacher is the one who misbehaved and took advantage of his students, the students were also at fault in neglecting the study of the Dharma.

I can certainly agree with that. I guess 'guilty' just sounded somewhat harsh to my ear. However, I do feel that Sasaki's fault is really of a different order of magnitude than that of the women he abused.
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: American "Zen"

Postby Astus » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:20 am

dzogchungpa wrote:I can certainly agree with that. I guess 'guilty' just sounded somewhat harsh to my ear. However, I do feel that Sasaki's fault is really of a different order of magnitude than that of the women he abused.


Agreed. However, to avoid future incidents, studying the actual teachings of the Buddha and the masters should be emphasised. It is really saddening that only a handful of Zen teachers tell people more than how to put their buttocks on the cushion.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: American "Zen"

Postby Dan74 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:13 am

shel wrote:That's not what they teach in "American Zen" however. This was posted yesterday at Zen Forum International:

Nonin Chowaney wrote:
shikantazen wrote:Eastern Spiritual practices recommend celibacy or at least some sexual restraint. They say that if you lose your sexual energy (semen) frequently (more than once/twice every week), it could affect your progress in meditation.

Does Zen have such a thing? Is sexual restraint required to make progress?


No.

Hands palm-to-palm


The signature line for Nonin reads:
Soto Zen Buddhist Priest. Transmitted Dharma Heir of Dainin Katagiri Roshi.
Abbot and Head Teacher, Nebraska Zen Center / Heartland Temple, Omaha, Nebraska, USA


It's well know that Dainin Katagiri Roshi also slept with students while married, so Nonin's views are not surprising.


You've really outdone yourself this time, shel!

C'mon! The context was controlling emissions of semen and restraint in the sense of a yogi, not misconduct. And just because Katagiri's affair was revealed after his death, does not mean that Nonin condones such things. It may in fact make him more sensitive and exercise greater restraint.

I mean you don't have to like Nonin, but in your pursuit of be critical at all costs, you seem to have abandoned any pretense to objectivity, my friend.

You also seem to be a bit loose with the facts - which moderators are from Treeleaf? Kojip is a ex-moderator who joined Trealeaf some time after resigning as a mod. And who else were you thinking of?

Look, ZFI is not perfect, but you go over the top with your comments. Had you been more objective, I think people would have more time for your comments which are not completely without merit, IMO. As it stands you are getting more and more ignored around here.
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Re: American "Zen"

Postby shel » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:28 am

Dan74 wrote:You've really outdone yourself this time, shel!

C'mon!

Calm yourself, please.

The context was controlling emissions of semen and restraint in the sense of a yogi, not misconduct.

The question was also, "Is sexual restraint required to make progress?" and the American Zen masters answer was, "No." That's what's taught in American "Zen." Some of the consequences of that teaching are...

And just because Katagiri's affair was revealed after his death, does not mean that Nonin condones such things. It may in fact make him more sensitive and exercise greater restraint.

Of course, anything's possible, but there's dialog at ZFI indicating he had little direction in matters like this, which is odd, don't you think?

in your pursuit of be critical at all costs, you seem to have abandoned any pretense to objectivity, my friend.

You haven't shown where I'm off, at least not yet.

You also seem to be a bit loose with the facts - which moderators are from Treeleaf? Kojip is a ex-moderator who joined Trealeaf some time after resigning as a mod. And who else were you thinking of?

Pedestrian.

Look, ZFI is not perfect, but you go over the top with your comments. Had you been more objective, I think people would have more time for your comments which are not completely without merit, IMO. As it stands you are getting more and more ignored around here.

I trust you've heard the expression about the kettle calling the pot black. At least we'll have each other after all others forsake us.


ps: loved your last post in the Treeleaf topic. Can you believe his response. "Jundo and Taigu actually pretty powerful teachers," What modesty. :tongue:
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Re: American "Zen"

Postby Dan74 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:34 am

shel wrote:
Dan wrote:
You also seem to be a bit loose with the facts - which moderators are from Treeleaf? Kojip is a ex-moderator who joined Trealeaf some time after resigning as a mod. And who else were you thinking of?

Pedestrian.

Look, ZFI is not perfect, but you go over the top with your comments. Had you been more objective, I think people would have more time for your comments which are not completely without merit, IMO. As it stands you are getting more and more ignored around here.

I trust you've heard the expression about the kettle calling the pot black. At least we'll have each other after all others forsake us. :tongue:


Pedestrian is a student of James Ford (http://zenforuminternational.org/viewtopic.php?f=119&t=9265&p=142776#p142759) and how I would categorize your response above... you can do better.
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Re: American "Zen"

Postby shel » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:37 am

Dan74 wrote:Pedestrian is a student of James Ford (http://zenforuminternational.org/viewtopic.php?f=119&t=9265&p=142776#p142759) and

I don't know if he still is, but he was a member of Treeleaf, not long ago.

how I would categorize your response above... you can do better.

What do you mean? I don't follow.
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