What are the Ngagpa vows?

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What are the Ngagpa vows?

Postby Sora » Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:55 pm

If you know, please let me know what are the Ngagpa/Ngagmo vows and how to become one!
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Re: What are the Ngagpa vows?

Postby futerko » Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:42 am

we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: What are the Ngagpa vows?

Postby ngodrup » Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:31 am

Sora wrote:If you know, please let me know what are the Ngagpa/Ngagmo vows and how to become one!


The root samayas have been posted, there are other commitments-- several levels. The vision behind this is utterly
pervasive. The specifics of ngakpa ordination are to a large extent confidential between oneself and the ngakpa
who is one's root guru, what details are to be observed. One becomes one when it seems necessary that one
becomes one. After one has a relationship of mutual trust with a lama who is a ngakpa, you can ask that lama
if he or she will ordain you. So will, some will not.
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Re: What are the Ngagpa vows?

Postby heart » Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:41 am

Sora wrote:If you know, please let me know what are the Ngagpa/Ngagmo vows and how to become one!


There isn't any simple answer to that question. I spent considerable time investigating this out of personal interest. The easy answer is that all serious laypeople practicing the three inner tantras are ngakpas. Looking at it like this only persons with a certain amount of realization should wear the ngakpa clothes. This is more or less what my Guru says about this. However, there do exist some transmissions of special samayas ,on top of the samayas for the inner tantras, for example, the hair empowerment in the Dudjom throma cycle. In some snghas it also seems like everyone wear Ngakpa clothes. Ultimately it seems to be between you and your Guru.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: What are the Ngagpa vows?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:49 am

:good:
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Re: What are the Ngagpa vows?

Postby heart » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:00 am

To add a few things.

To become a Ngakpa you have to have certain things. A Guru. The necessary empowerment's. Capacity to keep the Samaya by continuously practicing whatever your Guru ask of you. The capacity and the great fortune to learn how to do the various rituals belonging to your practices. The capacity to find and get transmission and instruction on the various commentaries of your practice, this often include sponsoring translations. The capacity to practice joyfully and never give up with great courage no matter what happens day after day, month, weeks, years and decades until we die.

So in a sense it all boils down to devotion, compassion and recognition of the natural state.

So this is not like taking monk vows where the vows in a sense is the practice of being a monk. Being a Ngakpa is means integrating the practice of the three inner tantras with an ordinary life, meaning a partner, children and a full time work or however your particular circumstances are.

So, if you want to become a Ngakpa the most important thing is finding a qualified Guru and being accepted as his/her disciple.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: What are the Ngagpa vows?

Postby Gyalpo » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:35 am

It is also said, that no one can hold all the samayas in a perfect way. Therefore we do also purification with ganapuja or Vajrasattva. My ngakpa lama told us, that he will not explain all the samayas to us at once, because no one will take the ngakpa ordination. He said, that it is better to learn them slowly, train oneself, and to become better ngakpa step by step, every day. No one can by perfect ngakpa practicioner ot once.

Anyway, to take a ngakpa ordination is at least commitment to be more serious and dedicated practicioner, than you was, for me it is a way in between lay and monastic.

I had the same questions years before I took this kind of ordinations, but 14 root downfalls was the only thing I find. Anyway, I dont know why I was so atracted to this...

If you want to know more, try this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Conduct-Ascertaining-Three-Vows/dp/0861710835
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Re: What are the Ngagpa vows?

Postby byamspa » Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:42 pm

My teachers put out a condescend commentary on the three vows as presented in the book referenced above:

http://www.padmasambhava.org/cart/catal ... cts_id=662
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Re: What are the Ngagpa vows?

Postby Yudron » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:07 am

heart wrote:To add a few things.

To become a Ngakpa you have to have certain things. A Guru. The necessary empowerment's. Capacity to keep the Samaya by continuously practicing whatever your Guru ask of you. The capacity and the great fortune to learn how to do the various rituals belonging to your practices. The capacity to find and get transmission and instruction on the various commentaries of your practice, this often include sponsoring translations. The capacity to practice joyfully and never give up with great courage no matter what happens day after day, month, weeks, years and decades until we die.

So in a sense it all boils down to devotion, compassion and recognition of the natural state.

So this is not like taking monk vows where the vows in a sense is the practice of being a monk. Being a Ngakpa is means integrating the practice of the three inner tantras with an ordinary life, meaning a partner, children and a full time work or however your particular circumstances are.

So, if you want to become a Ngakpa the most important thing is finding a qualified Guru and being accepted as his/her disciple.

/magnus


:good:

It is often that the most important point is lost in the on-line discussions of the Vajrayana, and also in our own practice: respect and devotion towards one's guru.
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Re: What are the Ngagpa vows?

Postby Sora » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:25 am

Thank you all so much for answering my question! Those were very helpful.
I have a lama that I feel deep faith and devotion and I know I want to be devoted to him
for the rest my life. I wanted to know some basic things before bothering him with my
question (He is old, travels all the time and my question will need to be translated...).
The idea of becoming a Nagpa/Nagmo (I guess in my case Nagmo, because I'm a woman)
came precisely because I feel so much devotion to him--I feel I like to take on some commitments
and responsibility. As I decided not to become a nun after thinking about it on and off for years,
thought this might be something that I need to pursue.
By the way, my Lama is a monk. I thought a monk-lama can still give a Nagpa vow but am I wrong?
Any thoughts are welcome, thanks very much!
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Re: What are the Ngagpa vows?

Postby ngodrup » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:56 am

Sora wrote:By the way, my Lama is a monk. I thought a monk-lama can still give a Nagpa vow but am I wrong?
Any thoughts are welcome, thanks very much!


Generally speaking when someone speaks of a ngakpa, they are referring to the white skirt, long hair
sangha, not the red skirt shaved head sangha. So the aspiring ngakpa would seek out a ngakpa as their
root guru. Some monks also hold ngakpa and have the authority to give that ordination, but not typically.
Monks rarely give ngakpa ordination, although i know of a few. (maybe just Dudjom Tersar and Nam cho?)
Likewise, Ngakpas, since they are not monks do not give monastic ordination, but can give bodhisattva vows.
More typically ngakpas make ngakpas.

Are there any ngakpas in your sangha that your monastic lama has ordained?
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Re: What are the Ngagpa vows?

Postby heart » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:31 pm

Sora wrote:
By the way, my Lama is a monk. I thought a monk-lama can still give a Nagpa vow but am I wrong?
Any thoughts are welcome, thanks very much!


Since anything Ngakpa is a part of samaya it depends on if your Guru holds the empowerment's with Ngakpa samayas. If he is a major lineage holder he probably does. Then there is also the question what kind of path he think is best for his students.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: What are the Ngagpa vows?

Postby Heruka » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:19 am

many vow takers, few vow keepers.
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Re: What are the Ngagpa vows?

Postby byamspa » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:30 pm

Heruka wrote:many vow takers, few vow keepers.


If we were not deluded sentient beings, there would be no need for vows to begin with!

Is it difficult? Yes. Is it worth trying? YES!

Its not something casual to do for fun, but maybe if you feel so very strongly to liberate as many as you can as soon as possible, then maybe this is something worth attempting. Samayas are compared to a soft gold pot, easy to dent, but easy enough to repair too.

Samayas are a FORD car: Fix or Repair Daily (this is not to say Fords are not reliable autos, but the acronym fit my point)
Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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Re: What are the Ngagpa vows?

Postby ngodrup » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:39 pm

byamspa and heruka,
Very good point!

Truth be told, if one could actually keep all the samayas and vows,
one would already be realized! Alas, the point seems to be to try--
which is most rare. To have the inspiration, understanding, and guts
to make 'impossible promises' and the even try to fulfill them is amazing.
The reality is the practice is doing a lot of purification.
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Re: What are the Ngagpa vows?

Postby byamspa » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:14 pm

ngodrup wrote: --snip--
Likewise, Ngakpas, since they are not monks do not give monastic ordination, but can give bodhisattva vows.
--snip--


We can? None of my teachers ever said this, then again, I never asked about it.

I would not feel comfortable that I'm qualified to do this.
Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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Re: What are the Ngagpa vows?

Postby Yudron » Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:53 pm

byamspa wrote:
ngodrup wrote: --snip--
Likewise, Ngakpas, since they are not monks do not give monastic ordination, but can give bodhisattva vows.
--snip--


We can? None of my teachers ever said this, then again, I never asked about it.

I would not feel comfortable that I'm qualified to do this.


I think Ngodrup is referring to ngakpa lamas here.
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Re: What are the Ngagpa vows?

Postby Sora » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:25 pm

Thanks for all the replies. I really appreciate those comments!
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Re: What are the Ngagpa vows?

Postby conebeckham » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:49 pm

Frankly speaking, I think many people see "Ngagpa vows" more as a form of self-identification, a "status," if you will, than as a sign that one really
holds mantra," which is what "Ngakpa" really means.

If one's chief focus in life is the practice of secret mantra, and one knows and understands the samayas of the Inner Tantras, and one has actually committed onself to the continuous practice of some form of secret mantra practice, for one's lifetime, that is the chief thing. The "bestowal of vows," the clothes and the hair, all that stuff is really secondary, and should be an outward sign of an internal condition.

But perhaps I'm just talking to myself, here.
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.
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Re: What are the Ngagpa vows?

Postby heart » Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:39 am

conebeckham wrote:Frankly speaking, I think many people see "Ngagpa vows" more as a form of self-identification, a "status," if you will, than as a sign that one really
holds mantra," which is what "Ngakpa" really means.

If one's chief focus in life is the practice of secret mantra, and one knows and understands the samayas of the Inner Tantras, and one has actually committed onself to the continuous practice of some form of secret mantra practice, for one's lifetime, that is the chief thing. The "bestowal of vows," the clothes and the hair, all that stuff is really secondary, and should be an outward sign of an internal condition.

But perhaps I'm just talking to myself, here.


Not at all, I think that about sums it up.

/magnus
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