Wine and Meat Offerings?

[Adamantine]

yes you are of course right. following the instruction or the command of the Guru is the most important commitment in the Vajra path. if they instruct us in a way that may not be exactly how the texts describe we should look at it as "pith" instructions-- which mean they are tailored for us and therefor more effective guidance then if we were given some generic formula.

[ronnewmexico]

Yes...sorry for being confusing.

I did not intend to say my sadahana was tosk. Was I was intending to say since my sadahana does specify set out beer in it but that we use fruit juice instead(and thusly was a handy reference for comparison)...the lama who teaches us the ceremony, whatever ceremony, determines how we perform the ceremony and hence what substances to bring and utilize in it.

It may not matter deepending upon ceremony. It can be as simple as bring things to eat. Some ceremony it may be quite specifc such as bring wine and meat or rice or this or that, depending upon ceremony. I am certain I have eaten(that may be part of ceremony as well as offering) considered unclean substances in particular ceremony at times(I forget ash whatever now I forget). Butter structures,per example... there are many variances to what may be offered and what may be utilized depedning upon ceremony. What and how we utilize the substances is of course also taught and we must not vary that unless a lama says we may vary that.

I use my sadahana as example, as to my opinion..... whatever ceremony it is, sadahana, tosk, whatever, it is the lama who teaches, who determines the substances.
They the lama, may choose not to choose but it is still their choice, not ours. And it is not any lama........... but the lama that teaches this ceremony. We cannot take empowerment and then say...well I like how this other lama performs it I will do it this way...no.

So it is a bit not to point this whole thread...hence the various difficulties with it.
Religion is not democracy...we may feel this or that is not right or how we would do it(and the lama may take that into consideration in our ceremony as variance is possible)...but bottom line...alll ceremony...

it is the lama the teacher who is performing thr ceremony who teaches us how to conduct ourselves if we conduct ceremony, who determines this thing not us.

I am also not saying only monastic is performing ceremony, others may as we may,with our own personal ceremony of sorts we may conduct daily. Lneage determines who performs what and how things are done. To my experience it is lama ordained so I use that but always it is teacher with lineage who becomes the buddha upon that teaching throne. Others may conduct particular ceremony who are not monk or nun, as we perhaps all know.

What we feel about it...bottom line...it matters not a whit. Lama it is..... not us who decides.
I am long winded

WE may decide not to do the teaching(participate or learn the ceremony)...that is our choice, not the lamas. That is the democratic part.

[Adamantine]

yes. although it is also important i think to receive teachings on and properly understand the meaning of the tsok puja, rather than just blindly follow the practice without understanding
it. at first we may need to just follow along without understanding, and intuit that there is something profound happening through our psychic / energetic absorption. but eventually, and especially if we are going to perform it on our own at home then we should educate ourselves thoroughly in the different aspects of the ritual and the meanings related to the different substances: whether it is the general food offering, the meat and alcohol, the various torma offerings, the men and rakta, the dharmapala offerings in the serkyum, or even the lamp offerings.

it may be that we haven't gotten these teachings and don't know when they'll ever be offered: but if that is the case we need to take initiative to make formal requests to the Guru to give us those teachings-- that is our responsibility and sometimes necessary temdrel for the teacher to create the circumstances for such a teaching.

[ronnewmexico]

Agree 100%.

To add personally I never fully understand a ceremony or teaching. So I participate and do such but never in full understanding.
Doing the best I can do, with limited mind body and circumstance.
I understand a bit of most ceremonies I have empowerment for and a bit of most I have participated in. So I always depend a bit on the lama, and their choice.

Certainly I have read as much as possible of a thing before doing a thing of ceremony many times. Finding not such writings in kagyu I have even gone to the extent of bon or other not recognized tibetan lineage to get a feel of a thing.
Using that as a base of knowledge when the teaching is actually offered I may get a bit of it in my understanding. Practiceing vajrasattave per example(I know this is not tosk )....I first did the english for many months then did the other then did the formal teaching...but I am a slow read.

Others I suspect may get complete understanding of these things, and come at it more naturally. I am glad they may do so.
Lamas generally will know who may do what, of their students and groups of students. I think they get a feel for the collective intelligence of a group. WE all learn such things it seems in groups as groups do. Wide open teachings to anyone perhaps being only of a more basic sort, not requireing speciality.

[Adamantine]

Agree 100%.

To add personally I never fully understand a ceremony or teaching. So I participate and do such but never in full understanding.
Doing the best I can do, with limited mind body and circumstance.
I understand a bit of most ceremonies I have empowerment for and a bit of most I have participated in. So I always depend a bit on the lama, and their choice.

Certainly I have read as much as possible of a thing before doing a thing of ceremony many times. Finding not such writings in kagyu I have even gone to the extent of bon or other not recognized tibetan lineage to get a feel of a thing.
Using that as a base of knowledge when the teaching is actually offered I may get a bit of it in my understanding. Practiceing vajrasattave per example(I know this is not tosk )....I first did the english for many months then did the other then did the formal teaching...but I am a slow read.

Others I suspect may get complete understanding of these things, and come at it more naturally. I am glad they may do so.
Lamas generally will know who may do what, of their students and groups of students. I think they get a feel for the collective intelligence of a group. WE all learn such things it seems in groups as groups do. Wide open teachings to anyone perhaps being only of a more basic sort, not requireing speciality.

I understand what your are saying, about your experience. What I was saying was more that if we regularly do a practice, with a group-- as in tsok which most Vajrayana practitioners should be doing at least twice a month on the proper lunar days if not 4x ---or at home, then if we have not received extensive teachings that illuminate the different levels of meaning and conduct from our Vajra master or their representatives then we should take the initiative to request these extensive teachings. That is what the Lamas are there for, and it is up to us to take the initiative. Only if you ask will you receive....

[ronnewmexico]

Yes, I again agree 100%.

This is not my particular practice of focus on a personal note, at this time. I expressed view as it seemed similiar in the idea of offerings being qualified by a teacher as opposed to ourselves...seemed the conversation was at times headed that way, and though differing practice the idea of alcohole and meat seemed about the same in this context .

Great practice it is of upmost importance.
My kudos to you if you practice this way. I suspect it has produced great benefit for you if it is your practice of focus.

[Adamantine]

Your Lama is your compass so however he is guiding you is correct. But in general, it is considered quite essential to perform and/or attend the monthly tsok pujas on the 10th and 25th days of maximum male and female energies respectively. Here is a teaching of HH Dudjom Rinpoche which expounds on the "Benefits of Observing the Great Festival of the Tenth Day" http://tersar.org/Calendar.html As you can see, the benefits are inconceivable.

[ronnewmexico]

Yes A...I don't doubt the value or necessity of doing that thing.
If anything I may say hints at that thing not having value or meaning of necessity, what I say is then taken wrongly...it has value and meaning.

Me personally, this will probably seem quite odd and faulted
if one performs a ceremony to perfection the top to bottom of it, the side to side of it in its entireity, no matter how mundane the ceremony it will bring attainment.

The closeest I have gotton in ceremony being a small person of limitation is to see all things in a particular hue at times. I suspect some others may also see this but some may forget it ever happens, and to see as result thought, word thought, as light.
I have asked a lama I have received many teachings from if I should employ means to continue this state of light as thought and he has not stated I should.
That would be useing this thing as means of a sort, is what I assume and do agree with what he says to not use it thusly.

The intention as I read it............ is to see life as ceremony. All things as ceremony. And each and every ceremony. As one in the bardo is perhaps taught to see all perspective wombs as temples of understanding one is entering.
Not that but similiar to that.

I can of course elicit with effort thought as light..it is a rather mundane thing of no import nor consequence. I can also elicit hue at times with effort and that likewise is a mundane thing of no import nor consequence.

The lesson I have and it is a personal lesson indeed..... is to see, so all things are seen in this hue, and all thought is light naturally, without means nor complusion...naturally in a way..so they occur naturally always. All as ceremony, which by my take is completely completing ceremony as that is all ceremonies intention....to provide that perfect change.

So I do my little sadahana do my litte things go to ceremony on occasion and mainly wait for this thing to evolve.
A lifetime or two....I suspect firmly it will. It is of no matter it occurs right here and now or there and then really.
So I mainly wait. I do not do that thing, though my not doing is not to infer in any manner it is not of great value.

WE are the same peoples and me in many fashions, but variability is also present.
I could perhaps employ means to do some great physical thing that is not possible.
But I must train train and with great effort and concentration perform that thing.
What then if I then jump into tree 20 feet from ground as result and find myself in that tree with no way then to get down...quite pecarious a position I would be in I may and must presently in these things convince myself I may do these things. It is not I may automatically know I may do these things.....hence the train train train. But the train train train has purpose but also produces not the result of great physical performance in all things. It has lessons in the training of great sort.... but eventually it must be endeavored in other manner. Which draws from the train train train but is not that.
That is me, not better nor worse, but me..my circumstance of persent sort.

I personally don't care a whit if this produces lesser rebirth or any sort of thing...my circumstance it is, I cannot say it is not. Compassion remains my only test of practice. Any other measure or possibility I have found all to be short and small thusly of not concern.

So we are all different. My circumstance may not be yours. Circumstances they all are only, not better nor worse nor good nor bad.
I do as I am instructed and I was instructed to "let no one tell me I may not", ....watch mind. I sit and watch mind. I wait. In the main that is what I do.

So strange unusual faulted...I care not. It is what I do, have been told I do, will do, and find most importantly I must do.
So off point a bit but it is on this thing of ceremony. Which is part of offerings.

To add...have no fear nor sorrow of my waiting place. My place of waiting is quite magical and various, no sorrow there is to be found in it. So have not that...it occured some may read that and be sad....it is not at all like that. Magical and unnatural all is plastic or wet, not rock nor stone within it...so there is not a hard thing to fall upon nor hurt oneself with in it.
That is as I am not better nor worse than you are nor of course of any accomplishment nor gain(I have none of those nor spiritual attribute of any sort).....but it is what it is...me... how I must act. But it is not sad at all.

[Adamantine]

Ron if I follow you correctly-- I find your view of relating all life as ceremony quite moving and in some way relates well to profound teachings of Trungpa Rinpoche on Dharma Art.

Watching the mind as primary practice and analyzing one's progress according to the development and stability of compassion also appears like the perfect combination.

In regards to the question of practicing or not practicing tsok regularly you did lose me a bit. I understood better just the idea that your Guru gave you certain practices to do regularly, you were doing them and nothing more... and tsok was not one of them. But in the last reply it sounds like partly there is fear involved, of not doing something correctly and falling from a precipice-- or tree, etc. being the guiding metaphor. Certainly there are some practices it is good to be cautious about. However, I am not sure what the real concern is in this regard. You don't need to explain to me, and we have veered way off topic: but maybe just maybe it is something to discuss in more detail with your Guru! It wouldn't hurt, at the very least. . .

[Karma Gendun]

Using meat and alcohol in tsok is highly debated. HH Karmapa does not want his students using meat and alcohol. The eight Karmapa Mikho Dorje said that anyone who uses meat in tsok is not part of the kagyu lineage. As well in words of my perfect teacher Patrul Rinpoche made it clear that meat from slaughtered animals should not be used by quoting Dharma Lord Gampopa, who Said tht offering meat to the wisdom deities was like killing a child and offering it to the mother. Similarly Karma Chagme Said meat is only for highly advanced practitioners who can liberate the animal, and transform alcohol. The alcohol is only for those who can change it ino Amrita. Just some food for thought. For us ordinary beings meat and alcohol should not be used.

[alpha]

For us ordinary beings meat and alcohol should not be used.

well ,probably is better that everybody sticks to whatever advice their teacher has given them.

[Konchog1]

Using meat and alcohol in tsok is highly debated. HH Karmapa does not want his students using meat and alcohol. The eight Karmapa Mikho Dorje said that anyone who uses meat in tsok is not part of the kagyu lineage. As well in words of my perfect teacher Patrul Rinpoche made it clear that meat from slaughtered animals should not be used by quoting Dharma Lord Gampopa, who Said tht offering meat to the wisdom deities was like killing a child and offering it to the mother. Similarly Karma Chagme Said meat is only for highly advanced practitioners who can liberate the animal, and transform alcohol. The alcohol is only for those who can change it ino Amrita. Just some food for thought. For us ordinary beings meat and alcohol should not be used.

Tantra Do Jung:

Without torma intoxicating
You won’t have quick attainments

Here, the intoxicating refers to alcohol; it does not refer to other drugs.

From the Heruka Root Tantra:

Vajra goddess – intoxicating and meat
If the capable being offers these with devotion and respect
Then Heruka will be actually pleased
Therefore making offerings with a very satisfied mind
Then sublimeness (enlightenment) will be granted.

http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect ... &chid=1515

[Karma Gendun]

Here is what it says in Words of My Perfect Teacher:
Even those five acceptable kinds of meat may only be used if you have the power to transform the food you eat into ambrosia and if you are in the process of practising to attain particular accomplishments in a solitary place. To eat them casually in a village, just because you like the taste, is what is meant by "heedless consumption contrary to the samayas of relishing," and is also a transgression.
"Pure meat," therefore, does not mean the meat of an animal slaughtered for food,... but from an animal that died of old age, sickness, or other natural causes.
The incomparable Dagpo Rinpoche said that taking the still warm flesh and blood of a freshly slaughtered animal and placing it in the mandala would make all the wisdom deities faint. It is also said that offering to the wisdom deities the flesh and blood of a slaughtered animal is like murdering a child in front of its mother. If you invited a mother for a meal and then set before her the flesh of her own child, would she like it, or would she not like it? It is with the same love as a mother for her only child that the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas look on all beings of the three worlds. Slaughtering an innocent animal that has been the victim of its own bad actions and offering its flesh and blood to them is therefore no way to please them. As the Bodhisattva Shantideva says:
Just as no pleasures can bring delight
To someone whose body is ablaze with fire,
Nor can the great compassionate ones be pleased When harm is done to sentient beings.
If you perform rituals like the offering prayer to the protectors using only the flesh and blood of slain animals, it goes without saying that the wisdom deities and the protectors of the Buddha's doctrine, who are all pure Bodhisattvas, will never accept those offerings of slaughtered beings laid out like meat on a butcher's counter. They will not even come anywhere near.
As for alcohol in Heruka Tantra,
I think that, it means whatever intoxicates our negative mind, and easily allows us to realize the true nature of mind. I think that the meat represents the negative aspects of us, and the alcohol represents Meditation which intoxicates our negativity, making it easier to realize true nature of mind, and transform our aggregates into the aggregates of the yidam. Whatever it is, whether it be juice, alcohol, etc. As long as it helps you realize true nature of mind that is what is needed. At the highest level that is alcohol, because the practitioner can transform into into Amrita. Actually they can transform all of the substances into Amrita. That is why it says " If the capable being offers these." Tsok is an offering of compassion that helps us transform ourselves into a Buddha. This is just what I have learned, and my opinion. I just want to show the other side of the discussion.

[Kunga]

For us ordinary beings meat and alcohol should not be used.

well ,probably is better that everybody sticks to whatever advice their teacher has given them.

This is the most sensible advice. It really doesn't matter who quotes from whom - and one should certainly not have the mistaken belief that one's lama or lineage has some kind of monopoly on truth that is somehow binding on others. Vajrayana Buddhism is not merely about the views of Dalai Lamas, Sakya Trizins, Karmapas, Shabkars, Dza Patruls or whatever other teachers may exist, as wonderful and worthy of the highest veneration as they are. It is about your relationship with your principal vajra master, and this is only between you and him/her.

One must follow his/her advice and do one's own practice. Many very high lamas throughout history, up to the present day, invoking the traditional teachings on this matter, have said - and continue to say - that *not* using meat and alcohol in ganapuja is an actual breakage of samaya. This is also my view, because my teacher has said it, but I don't expect anyone else to take it to heart, that would just be intellectual arrogance.