Astus wrote:How does this discussion of gender roles have a relevance to following the Vinaya or other sets of precepts? The OBC follows the Japanese version of bodhisattva precepts, or a combination of different regulations. This is one thing. In Buddhism being a bhikshu/ni is defined by the Vinaya, that is another thing. Since the OBC does not follow the Vinaya calling their clergy bhikshu/nis is incorrect from the Vinaya perspective. From a different perspective than the Vinaya it is a different matter. But since the Vinaya is one of the three baskets it is regarded as the definitive source of monastic regulations by the majority of Buddhists. As we all know, Japan is the one main exception where the Vinaya ordination has long disappeared. OBC, following the Japanese practice, don't have Vinaya ordination either. Arguing that a non-Vinaya system is better than the Vinaya system is again a different subject. However, expecting those who regard the Vinaya as the definitive source of monastic regulations to agree calling non-Vinaya ordained people bhikshu/nis is unrealistic.
Anyway, why the need to be called a bhikshu/ni when it is acceptable to abandon the Vinaya system?
They reffer to themselves as monks. and Monastics.
You're the one assuming it's all the same.
Dogen and his disciples were monastics, they were not vinaya. There is a long Buddhist history associated with this.
Monk, Nun, Monastery, Monastic,..-These are all English words, which also have a long established English and western history.
It is entirely accurate for them to call themselves that, in also a Buddhist sense as well. See here:
Huseng wrote:The Buddha gave permission to adjust and change the Vinaya as needed, which actually happened though perhaps unofficially.
Yes. Exactly. Thank you for pointing that out.
Huseng wrote:One thing I'd like to add to this discussion is that not having a Vinaya doesn't mean you can't have celibate monastics. If you followed the old monastic systems in Japan that lacked the formal Vinaya component, you still swore yourself to celibacy and monastic living.
Astus, they do not claim to be vinaya.
They will clearly state that they are not, I know this for sure, because this came up in a conversation with Rev. Master Haryo, and he said clearly "we're not vinaya".
There's also a reference in that article I linked to earlier in this thread where another monk had clearly stated what their practice was, and that they were not vinaya.
So it's clearly their habit, practice, and policy to state this, so they're not misrepresenting themselves as you seem to be implying.
It's you who are associating the two terms together, that "Buddhist monk=vinaya", that's not in line with Buddhist history, or the Buddha's teaching Himself, or the history of the usage of the English words. It's entirely accurate for them to call themselves monastics in both a Buddhist historical context, of Buddhist monastic practice, and in line with the western meanings of the English words.
They call themselves Soto Zen Buddhist Monks.
They clearly are.
And as Huseng pointed out, the Buddha gave people permission to alter the vinaya as needed.
Even He saw that as needs changed, there may well be a need for people to do so.
That some current vinaya practitioners hold that these things must be a forever unalterable ceremony, and a ridged set of rules, was not the teachings of the Buddha.
Nor is it in line with historic context.
They (the OBC) are Buddhists, and they are monks, therefor they are Buddhist monks; that's an entirely accurate statement.
Both the teachings of the Buddha Himself, and Buddhist history, support this.
It's this ironclad traditionalism, which was not what He supported, and in fact is the kindof thing he advocated against, as such practice was common with the Vedic religions of the day.
[Thank you Huseng for pointing this out. : )]
One traditional Vinaya idea is that the Vinaya is the lifeline of Buddhism which enables it to abide in the world. It is with the degeneration of the Vinaya that the lifeline is eroded and Buddhism passes from the world.
This may be a view held by some, but in Zen, it is Dharma Transmission and the unbroken teachings passed directly from Master-to-disciple, on, and on, that are considered the lifeline of the Buddhas.
There may be more than one lifeline, indeed, the ceremony in Jukai, that teaches about this is called Ketchimyaku: The Bloodline of the Buddhas.
There are many paths that lead to the top of Mount Sumaru.
What's important is that you pick one, and follow it.
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil
" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy