Health Impact of Celibacy

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Re: Health Impact of Celibacy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:00 pm

News flash! Samsara is not just planet earth and it's not just the human and animal realms... ;)
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Health Impact of Celibacy

Postby Karma Dorje » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:25 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:News flash! Samsara is not just planet earth and it's not just the human and animal realms... ;)


News Flash! Beings are born where they have causes and conditions in common. Most likely those that are being born here are from this planet and have interacted with others here in the relatively recent past. This does not mean there is no being from any other realm, terrestrial or otherwise of course. However, with the wholesale slaughter of livestock in recent years the simplest explanation is that the majority of these "new" humans were animals from here.
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Re: Health Impact of Celibacy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:43 pm

You are stuck on form, what about the hell and hungry ghost realm? Why do you consider that every animal that is slaughtered ends up a human being? Your assumptions don't really hold ground.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Health Impact of Celibacy

Postby Karma Dorje » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:58 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:You are stuck on form, what about the hell and hungry ghost realm? Why do you consider that every animal that is slaughtered ends up a human being? Your assumptions don't really hold ground.


Greg, please show me where I suggested "every animal that is slaughtered ends up a human being".
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Re: Health Impact of Celibacy

Postby uan » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:52 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:You are stuck on form, what about the hell and hungry ghost realm? Why do you consider that every animal that is slaughtered ends up a human being? Your assumptions don't really hold ground.


Greg, please show me where I suggested "every animal that is slaughtered ends up a human being".


Since the ~1.7B people alive in 1900 are mostly dead (except for the odd 113 year old or 2) then to get to the 7B alive now, your implying that billions of animals, specifically, the animals that have been slaughtered, have taken rebirth in the human realm, at least to the extent that these specific hypothetical rebirths are contributing to whatever "neuroses" humanity is beginning to resemble.

So you're not saying that every animal slaughtered is taking human rebirth, but you are saying that the majority of all humans being born are from the slaughtered animal realm. In addition, that they bring a similar and specific mind stream into the human realm of what you imagine to be their experience of their life and death (who knows the causes and conditions that brought them to being born as animals led to the slaughter in the first place?). And that this mass mind stream is creating a super-mindstream that is the root of humanity's neuorses/problems/issues.

I'm not opposed to the concept of the Jungian collective unconscious, but could you expand more on what traditions of Buddhism goes deeper into your interpretation of what's been going on?

Clearly I'm dubious, but I will be sincerely open to further clarification.
Last edited by uan on Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Health Impact of Celibacy

Postby dzogchungpa » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:53 pm

greentara wrote:But the Buddha, Milerepa, Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta showed spontaneous celibacy, not forced, not contrived.... a divine pouring out of purity.


Why do you say that Nisargadatta was celibate?
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Re: Health Impact of Celibacy

Postby Karma Dorje » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:15 pm

uan wrote:Since the ~1.7B people alive in 1900 are mostly dead (except for the odd 113 year old or 2) then to get to the 7B alive now, your implying that billions of animals, specifically, the animals that have been slaughtered, have taken rebirth in the human realm, at least to the extent that these specific hypothetical rebirths are contributing to whatever "neuroses" humanity is beginning to resemble.

So you're not saying that every animal slaughtered is taking human rebirth, but you are saying that the majority of all humans being born are from the slaughtered animal realm. In addition, that they bring a similar and specific mind stream into the human realm of what you imagine to be their experience of their life and death (who knows the causes and conditions that brought them to being born as animals led to the slaughter in the first place?). And that this mass mind stream is creating a super-mindstream that is the root of humanity's neuorses/problems/issues.

I'm not opposed to the concept of the Jungian collective unconscious, but could you expand more on what traditions of Buddhism goes deeper into your interpretation of what's been going on?

Clearly I'm dubious, but I will be sincerely open to further clarification.


Where are you getting this bit about neuroses? I have also not suggested anything about a collective unconscious. I am saying that as animals are habituated to certain patterns of conceptuality and emotion, these samskaras carry through into future lives, individually.

How? As a focus on fulfilling their appetites along with pervasive dullness. Increased identification with the herd, fear of otherness, support for leadership from the most muscularly strong leaders. A dog-eat-dog mentality. There is no super-mindstream involved. Just the actions of countless confused individuals that we abstract to general trends. Such analysis is implicit in the ngondro teachings on the six realms of beings in the Vajrayana teachings of most Tibetan schools.
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Re: Health Impact of Celibacy

Postby uan » Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:12 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:Where are you getting this bit about neuroses? I have also not suggested anything about a collective unconscious. I am saying that as animals are habituated to certain patterns of conceptuality and emotion, these samskaras carry through into future lives, individually.


Karma Dorje wrote:It stands to reason that the neuroses of humanity begin to resemble those of the animal realm.



You brought up neuroses, specifically the "neuroses of humanity". Since you are using this as a broad term to refer basically to everyone who is alive today, that carries, at the minimum, the flavor of a collective unconscious (a term I did introduce to the conversation), whereby since everyone is carrying individually the samskaras of their recent animal lives and you say this is collectively flavoring the "neuroses of humanity". A neuroses you imply that is either something new or somehow different now than it's been before (as if humanity's previous neuroses, aka samsara, was somehow better?).

So I get the idea of how one's previous life carries forward, but the leap I'm struggling with is, unless you are a Buddha, how do you know from which realms etc those being born today are coming from? Not only do you state they are from the animal realm, but that they are from slaughtered animals. You cannot know that. You're projecting your own mind onto reality, which we all do, but that doesn't make your reality true. You're also making judgments on whether that is good or bad and whether "it" is different than it was before. Personally, I have no recollection of my previous lives, so I couldn't say what was different. Or in what way things are the same. Or how it was the same or different being a courtesan in a Medieval court in France, to one in China, to being a serf in Tibet to being a farmer in Peru, to being Donald Trump today or a beggar in India harvesting plastic bags from landfills to recycle for the barest subsistence level income.

Also, the characteristics you are pointing to have been around in humanity for as long as we've had recorded history, at least from the time of the Agricultural/Neolithic Revolution. And certainly have been put into writing since Darwin and the whole concept of the survival of the fittest. Which is before this imagined influx of rebirths from the slaughtered animal realm.

I know one thing for sure. We are definitely going :offtopic: :rolling:
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Re: Health Impact of Celibacy

Postby Poorbitch » Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:51 pm

Very interesting KD :thumbsup:
bla bla bla
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Re: Health Impact of Celibacy

Postby uan » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:26 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:Just the actions of countless confused individuals that we abstract to general trends.


I'd point out that we don't need to come from the animal realm to be confused individuals - basically the vast majority of us will be confused individuals through innumerable lifetimes, even moving from one human life to another. I'm not saying your mileage won't vary, but as a general trend that holds true.
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Re: Health Impact of Celibacy

Postby greentara » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:00 am

dzogchungpa, I included Nisargadata to the celibate listing as even though he was a married man, with children and a business to run in his early years; his gurus teaching made such an impact on him that after reaching liberation he left his family and wandered about homeless in a state of bliss for years. He had a chance meeting with a fellow devotee who convinced him to go home. Coming back he found most of his shops had collapsed, only one shop remaining, he accepted this humble business would be just enough to support the family. His wife passed away and he never entertained the thought of remarriage. Years later when devotees came from all over the world to sit at his feet he discouraged romantic or sexual questions. All discussions were centered around spiritual matters and the absolute.
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Re: Health Impact of Celibacy

Postby uan » Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:05 am

greentara wrote:dzogchungpa, I included Nisargadata to the celibate listing as even though he was a married man, with children and a business to run in his early years; his gurus teaching made such an impact on him that after reaching liberation he left his family and wandered about homeless in a state of bliss for years. He had a chance meeting with a fellow devotee who convinced him to go home. Coming back he found most of his shops had collapsed, only one shop remaining, he accepted this humble business would be just enough to support the family. His wife passed away and he never entertained the thought of remarriage. Years later when devotees came from all over the world to sit at his feet he discouraged romantic or sexual questions. All discussions were centered around spiritual matters and the absolute.


It's a good point. Celibacy doesn't mean virginity. There are many people who come to a monastic lifestyle later in life.

I also know a high lama in Eastern Tibet who has one student who's been with him for over 20 years. The lama specifically kept his student from taking the full monastic vows (with celibacy). At one point the student did try to out some relationships with women, but decided it wasn't for him and came back. The student is effectively celibate at this point.
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Re: Health Impact of Celibacy

Postby Karma Dorje » Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:11 am

uan wrote:You brought up neuroses, specifically the "neuroses of humanity". Since you are using this as a broad term to refer basically to everyone who is alive today, that carries, at the minimum, the flavor of a collective unconscious (a term I did introduce to the conversation), whereby since everyone is carrying individually the samskaras of their recent animal lives and you say this is collectively flavoring the "neuroses of humanity". A neuroses you imply that is either something new or somehow different now than it's been before (as if humanity's previous neuroses, aka samsara, was somehow better?).


Which is to say the neuroses that humans suffer from now as seeming individuals, not some sort of collective unconscious. If what I said came across that way, it was not my intention. I did not say this is new. Ignorance and lust are certainly not new features for humanity. What I am saying is that not everyone that has a human body right now necessarily has a fully developed human mind so it is natural that humans on the whole are taking on modes of being of the lower realms.

uan wrote:So I get the idea of how one's previous life carries forward, but the leap I'm struggling with is, unless you are a Buddha, how do you know from which realms etc those being born today are coming from? Not only do you state they are from the animal realm, but that they are from slaughtered animals. You cannot know that.


I don't know in the case of any *individual being* where they have come from by direct perception. However, that is not the only valid means of knowledge. You can reason based on the teachings. Beings that one kills one owes a debt to. There are few stronger actions than taking the life of a being. Given the scale of misery we as humans have been subjecting animals to in the last 60 years, there is no question that we are incurring a tremendous debt to the victims of slaughter. The karma of pretas and narakas is much more extreme and as the teachings illustrate countless times, it is much harder for them to escape from their realms.

uan wrote:You're projecting your own mind onto reality, which we all do, but that doesn't make your reality true. You're also making judgments on whether that is good or bad and whether "it" is different than it was before.


I am not projecting my mind onto reality. I am presenting a reasoning based on the teachings. Good or bad is irrelevant and another concept like the collective unconscious that I have not brought up in this discussion.
We have sutras, tantras and shastras. We have commentaries. We have access to teachers. Have you never asked yourself how it is that the human population has grown sixfold in 100 years? I don't believe humans (or any other being for that matter) are born as tabula rasa.

uan wrote:Also, the characteristics you are pointing to have been around in humanity for as long as we've had recorded history, at least from the time of the Agricultural/Neolithic Revolution. And certainly have been put into writing since Darwin and the whole concept of the survival of the fittest. Which is before this imagined influx of rebirths from the slaughtered animal realm.


If you read the teachings on the six realms from any school, it is always pointed out that while humans suffer most strongly from pride, they have all the other negative emotions within them. This does not invalidate that when large numbers of beings come from different realms, the balance can change. Look at how degraded things have become! Heck, Ayn Rand is even considered a writer and philosopher. If that isn't a sign of Kali Yuga, I don't know what is.
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Re: Health Impact of Celibacy

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:42 am

Ayn Rand is even considered a writer and philosopher. If that isn't a sign of Kali Yuga, I don't know what is.


:rolling: :rolling:

Don't have a real opinion on the subject at hand, but i'm saving this for my sig file.
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is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Health Impact of Celibacy

Postby uan » Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:56 am

Karma Dorje wrote:
uan wrote:You're projecting your own mind onto reality, which we all do, but that doesn't make your reality true. You're also making judgments on whether that is good or bad and whether "it" is different than it was before.



I am not projecting my mind onto reality. I am presenting a reasoning based on the teachings. Good or bad is irrelevant and another concept like the collective unconscious that I have not brought up in this discussion.

Look at how degraded things have become!


You say you haven't brought good or bad the conversation, but you say things like "look at how degraded things have become!"

That seems to indicate "bad". I don't know how degraded things have become. That is a projection you are bringing to the table. You can say it's reason based on the teachings, but that is still projection. We don't have pure minds here.

The teachings also talk about an infinite number of beings in the 10 directions of the universe etc. You're painting a picture that there is some sort of bull pen and as more people get born that there is a dearth of beings who've been previously in the human realm to come back and take rebirth. You're effectively saying "do the math" there's no way the beings taking rebirth could have come from anywhere but the animal realms. And those that are slaughtered at that.
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Re: Health Impact of Celibacy

Postby dzogchungpa » Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:59 am

greentara wrote:dzogchungpa, I included Nisargadata to the celibate listing as even though he was a married man, with children and a business to run in his early years; his gurus teaching made such an impact on him that after reaching liberation he left his family and wandered about homeless in a state of bliss for years. He had a chance meeting with a fellow devotee who convinced him to go home. Coming back he found most of his shops had collapsed, only one shop remaining, he accepted this humble business would be just enough to support the family. His wife passed away and he never entertained the thought of remarriage. Years later when devotees came from all over the world to sit at his feet he discouraged romantic or sexual questions. All discussions were centered around spiritual matters and the absolute.


OK, but I'm not sure that that is evidence that he remained celibate after his wife's death. Furthermore, I don't think I have heard of him ever recommending or encouraging celibacy. Don't get me wrong I am a very great admirer of Maharaj, and i don't think there is anything wrong with celibacy, I'm just saying it's not clear.
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Re: Health Impact of Celibacy

Postby greentara » Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:02 am

karma dorje, "However, with the wholesale slaughter of livestock in recent years the simplest explanation is that the majority of these "new" humans were animals from here" Thats quite a statement, thats a long bow to draw!
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Re: Health Impact of Celibacy

Postby Karma Dorje » Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:42 am

uan wrote:The teachings also talk about an infinite number of beings in the 10 directions of the universe etc. You're painting a picture that there is some sort of bull pen and as more people get born that there is a dearth of beings who've been previously in the human realm to come back and take rebirth. You're effectively saying "do the math" there's no way the beings taking rebirth could have come from anywhere but the animal realms. And those that are slaughtered at that.


I have not heard even so much as a shred of an argument to the contrary. Just the claim that "that's a projection", and endless misstatements of my position. I didn't say there's no way the beings could come from anywhere else. I said the most likely explanation is this. The one thing that is for certain is they aren't coming from the human realm. That's just simple arithmetic.

Why don't you explain why this makes no sense, based on buddhist teachings and scriptures?
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Re: Health Impact of Celibacy

Postby Karma Dorje » Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:43 am

greentara wrote:karma dorje, "However, with the wholesale slaughter of livestock in recent years the simplest explanation is that the majority of these "new" humans were animals from here" Thats quite a statement, thats a long bow to draw!


I fail to see how it is in the least controversial. I have pets that are more highly evolved than Republicans, for example.
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Re: Health Impact of Celibacy

Postby Adamantine » Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:05 am

Karma Dorje wrote:Saying something sounds like something else doesn't refute it. Regardless, zero sum is irrelevant. Those that are human now are quite obviously not accounted for by the number of humans that existed on the earth prior to 1900. Unless you are saying that there are 5.3 billion tulkus that account for the difference, there is a 1:1 correlation that needs to be explained. Where are these sentient beings coming from? An actual argument for your position would be welcomed.


You don't think that beings from other worlds / world systems would incarnate in this one?

Also, hell beings, pretas, gods and demi gods could all be ascending or falling into human births, it is not just animal realm----> human realm.
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