Where is Mount Sumeru?

[Konchog1]

"In the same way, monks, there are many more things that I have found out, but not revealed to you. What I have revealed to you is only a little. And why, monks, have I not revealed it?

"Because, monks, it is not related to the goal, it is not fundamental to the holy life, does not conduce to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, tranquillity, higher knowledge, enlightenment or Nibbaana. That is why I have not revealed it. And what, monks, have I revealed?

"What I have revealed is: 'This is Suffering, this is the Arising of Suffering, this is the Cessation of Suffering, and this is the Path that leads to the Cessation of Suffering.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html

In terms of an individual's spiritual progress it doesn't matter what cosmological system they believe in. I think the Buddha knew how the universe really exists but worried that if he deviated from the contemporary view: 1. people would find fault with Buddhism on that basis alone and 2. his disciples would be more interested in learning about that than about Buddhism.

[wayland]

From our perspective, as earth-bound beings, the sun does indeed make its daily appearance, on its inexorable daily grind from east to west. …just as it does make sense to visualize the universe we would desire as a mandala, an idealized form, even as small as a disc, despite that the universe could never possibly fit into a disc, and even a largely two-dimensional one at that!

I suppose what I am trying to say is that although it is definitely not physically how depicted, it does make sense to the human mind to visualise the universe under the guise of that symbol.

Very much my take on it too. Insomuch as it is used in mandala practice, it has a "location" of sorts and a purpose.

[Nosta]

"In the same way, monks, there are many more things that I have found out, but not revealed to you. What I have revealed to you is only a little. And why, monks, have I not revealed it?

"Because, monks, it is not related to the goal, it is not fundamental to the holy life, does not conduce to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, tranquillity, higher knowledge, enlightenment or Nibbaana. That is why I have not revealed it. And what, monks, have I revealed?

"What I have revealed is: 'This is Suffering, this is the Arising of Suffering, this is the Cessation of Suffering, and this is the Path that leads to the Cessation of Suffering.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html

In terms of an individual's spiritual progress it doesn't matter what cosmological system they believe in. I think the Buddha knew how the universe really exists but worried that if he deviated from the contemporary view: 1. people would find fault with Buddhism on that basis alone and 2. his disciples would be more interested in learning about that than about Buddhism.

But at same time, Buddha saying something that he knew to be wrong, is causing doubts about the things he say. For example, I can question myself: if Mount Sumeru is just something unreal/not correct, can I say that other teachings like the existence of Pure Land, Karma Law, realms of existence, etc are correct too?

[Caz]

My teacher said it was real, I just get the feeling its not physically present on earth but rather present on a grand cosmological scale. Perhaps as something only seen with pure eyes.

[plwk]

Short excerpt from a meeting between HHDL and a Thai delegation in Dharamsala in March 2011.
Interesting to hear what HHDL opines on Mt Meru, cosmology, the Abhidharmakosa, the essence/focus of the Buddha's Teaching, Big Bang... the focus starts at 2:59-8:11

[Konchog1]

"In the same way, monks, there are many more things that I have found out, but not revealed to you. What I have revealed to you is only a little. And why, monks, have I not revealed it?

"Because, monks, it is not related to the goal, it is not fundamental to the holy life, does not conduce to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, tranquillity, higher knowledge, enlightenment or Nibbaana. That is why I have not revealed it. And what, monks, have I revealed?

"What I have revealed is: 'This is Suffering, this is the Arising of Suffering, this is the Cessation of Suffering, and this is the Path that leads to the Cessation of Suffering.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html

In terms of an individual's spiritual progress it doesn't matter what cosmological system they believe in. I think the Buddha knew how the universe really exists but worried that if he deviated from the contemporary view: 1. people would find fault with Buddhism on that basis alone and 2. his disciples would be more interested in learning about that than about Buddhism.

But at same time, Buddha saying something that he knew to be wrong, is causing doubts about the things he say. For example, I can question myself: if Mount Sumeru is just something unreal/not correct, can I say that other teachings like the existence of Pure Land, Karma Law, realms of existence, etc are correct too?

He was more concerned about getting Buddhism going than doubts that might arise in 2000 years I'd imagine.

[Jinzang]

If you press a Tibetan lama on this question, they will say all phenomena only exist in the mind, so some beings have the karma to perceive Mount Meru and others do not.

[Ramon1920]

I wouldn't get too caught up on details like that. The end of suffering is possible through human effort. We are Mahayana here, Nagarjuna divided the scriptures into interpretable and categorical a long time ago to reconcile these problems. It could be that Sumeru doesn't exist, or it's really something out in the cosmos, or maybe reality is fundamentally different than we imagine it to be right now and there's also a gigantic mountain here, it's not a critical teaching, your liberating yourself doesn't hinge on it.

[dorjeshonnu]

purify the senses with concentration and so on - then find out

[sukhamanveti]

I think "Mount Sumeru/Meru" may have been once understood as an intangible nexus connecting unseen realms to the material world. I think that some ancient śramaṇas, shamans, and meditators in cultures with the concept of an ethereal world axis may have entered heightened states of consciousness and then followed this axis into what they perceived as other planes of existence. In this sense it may have been understood as something like the main road into unseen worlds of samsara, found only with the mind. I think that there is some evidence suggestive of this possibility.

First, there are the many hints that Mt. Sumeru was not viewed as an actual mountain. For example, it was thought to be higher than any actual mountain. It could be portrayed as a pillar or a post. It could be depicted as penetrating the spiritual universe "from top to bottom." (See Buddhist Cosmology by Akira Sadakata. On the other hand, the name of the "mountain" may have been derived from the sacred Persian mountain Merv.)

Second, there are similar concepts in other ancient cultures. When I used to study ancient Norse religion, I remember reading that a scholar suggested that the Norse shamans might have used the "world axis," conceived as the mighty tree Yggdrasil ("The Steed of Ygg") in the center of the world disk, connecting all spiritual realms to the material one, to visit unseen worlds inhabited by gods, spirits, and the like. Perhaps there is also a connection to "Jacob's ladder."

It's just an idea. If it is correct, however, it suggests that ancient people in different parts of the world may have used a similar "map" to approach "unseen realms."

[Indrajala]

It's just an idea. If it is correct, however, it suggests that ancient people in different parts of the world may have used a similar "map" to approach "unseen realms."

I agree with your ideas.

Also, to add to it, Sumeru is the abode of gods and so forth, many of which are non-corporeal from our perspective. It logically follows this is not a material place on earth.

I think what might have happened is that later thinkers indeed categorized it as physical geography and used it to help explain night and day (the sun going behind Mt. Meru causing darkness).

[pueraeternus]

It's just an idea. If it is correct, however, it suggests that ancient people in different parts of the world may have used a similar "map" to approach "unseen realms."

I agree with your ideas.

Also, to add to it, Sumeru is the abode of gods and so forth, many of which are non-corporeal from our perspective. It logically follows this is not a material place on earth.

I think what might have happened is that later thinkers indeed categorized it as physical geography and used it to help explain night and day (the sun going behind Mt. Meru causing darkness).

The shape of Sumeru is also described as hourglass, which would be weird for a massive mountain. The hourglass shape brings to mind tree iconography.

[TaTa]

I recall my lama mention that is more likley the center of the universe

[Aemilius]

There is an interesting description of Mt Sumeru in Abhidharmakosa of Vasubandhu. What lies atop Mt Sumeru is equally important, also vividly told by Vasubandhu.
In Torch of Certainty and other books about Ngondro practices it is said that Mt Sumeru is shaped like an upside down pyramid.
Being able to visualize the god realms is beneficial, it is included in the six or ten Anu-smriti practices. God realms nevertheless exist, so why not Mt Sumeru? If you have abundant merit, enough to be reborn there, you should be able to see or visualize them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Meru