"Johnny Dangerous"]Ok, not trying to start another "true self" thread, but wondering if someone can clarify this stuff for me:
Agreed we already have a discussion on the True Self topic so it shouldnt be brought up here whatsoever,if it is brought up in a qoute concerning the topics at hand(dependent origination/inherent existance/monism) the true self mentioned in the qoute should be ignored on this thread and only the info in the qoute that has to with the topic should be discussed.
Basically as I understand it Prasangika Madhymaka simply makes no assertion as to the state of ultimate reality, as it is impossible to describe, so makes no statement about ultimate reality being empty or dependently originated one way or another, due to the fact that we simply cannot describe ultimate realty in any terms, it is outside our capabilities...is this basically correct?
Before this discussion can even start,it must be made clear what the Rangtong postion is on ultimate reality,so this means you must first get together with other Rangtong practicioners and discuss what your views are.
You dont beleive Enlightenment can be discribed,so you will not say it is dependently originated,BUT others do say it is dependently originated.
Look on the thread (Nirvana-unborn or created) as you can see many view Enlightenment as being dependently originated.
I do not understand the Shentong criticism of this exactly, is it a claim that Rangtong says that ultimate reality is dependently originated (seems incorrect to me, since there is no such assertion being made by Rangtong to my reading) or is it something different?
Again you guys have to hash out your own views,before you can even compare it to ours.
Also, how is Shentong not monism..being as it is asserting such a thing as an "absolute reality" or permanent substance? Or is it, in fact just monism?
Good question,hmmm.not sure if I even know if this topic is even mentioned in Shentong texts.
Well lets poke at it,is all the Buddhas perfectly Enlightened?is it the same enlightedment or is there different full enlightenments? Do the Buddhas have different personalities where they can disagree with one anouther?
I suppose if Enlightenment is one then all Buddhas are perfectly one with one Full Enlightenment,unless Enlightenment is different for all Buddhas.
I take it that Shentong is a minority view in Tibetan Buddhism, but how widely held is it? At
first glance it also seems to go against the general trend of even parts of the Pali Canon, where
definite claims about existence and non existence are avoided in reference to ultimate reality...am misunderstanding some nuance of it.
It seems like the different sects have a wide variety of views on the subject, is there any kind of standard for the lineages, or is it simply a subject of debate?
I would think it is a minority view,although I have found that many Kagyu and Nygima(sorry if I spelled the wrong) also accept this view.
And of course all of Jonang hold this view.