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 Post subject: Enjoyment
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:15 pm 
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Is it possible to enjoy the temporary happiness of Samsaric existence?

If so to what degree, and at what point are we clinging?

Sometimes I have memories, which are clearly gone, never to be again, but the quality of them is something else, I can just sit and savor them...the memories are completely random, but something about them is calming, I don't know what the quality is, because it isn't related to content far as I can tell.

If you've read The Plague by Camus, there is a part where he is swimming, and in the midst of all this horror he experiences a kind of peace, maybe related, I don't know..but it came to mind. I know it may seem incongruous to compare Camus with Buddhism...but The Myth of Sisyphus is just about Samsara without quite distinguishing it's transcendence isn't it? To some degree it has always resonated with me.

What do you think?

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 Post subject: Re: Enjoyment
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:58 pm 
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Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Is it possible to enjoy the temporary happiness of Samsaric existence?

Dagyab Kyabgön Rinpoche said "Yes".
Because to enjoy is not exactly the same like clinging, in my opinion. One can appreciate strawberries but must not be addicted.


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If so to what degree, and at what point are we clinging?

The point is the grasping. As soon as there is grasping, there is clinging also. This is in different subtle or crude levels.
As soon as i stop grasping, i feel free. Then the world may be beautiful, but it doesn't hurt.

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If you've read The Plague by Camus, there is a part where he is swimming, and in the midst of all this horror he experiences a kind of peace, maybe related, I don't know..but it came to mind. I know it may seem incongruous to compare Camus with Buddhism...but The Myth of Sisyphus is just about Samsara without quite distinguishing it's transcendence isn't it? To some degree it has always resonated with me.

I didn't read that, but i imagine the moment he finds peace is the moment he stopps to grasp.

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 Post subject: Re: Enjoyment
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:39 am 
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Is it possible to enjoy the temporary happiness of Samsaric existence?
Of course. Don't you enjoy earthly pleasures like eating, sleeping, and having fun?

If so to what degree, and at what point are we clinging?
When we become so attached that we forget why we're here and have only so much time to do what he came here for.


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 Post subject: Re: Enjoyment
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:42 am 
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Wow, we need to talk about Camus. His vivid exposition of human suffering hits a chord in me that gives the Buddha's teachings even deeper meaning; but that's just me.


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 Post subject: Re: Enjoyment
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:30 am 
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dude wrote:
Wow, we need to talk about Camus. His vivid exposition of human suffering hits a chord in me that gives the Buddha's teachings even deeper meaning; but that's just me.



Before I found buddhism, my views matched exactly to Absurdism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism

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 Post subject: Re: Enjoyment
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:11 am 
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I don't think its possible to enjoy Samsara. Its possible to experience enjoyment, but if its Samsaric then its marked with attachment, craving, clinging, and suffering.

So enjoyment is possible, but enjoyment with attachment is not. It probably seems like a point of semantics, but its the difference between acting from a place of liberation and freedom and living in a gold gilt cage. Ultimately once you get disgusted with the cycle of existence the joy you feel from Samsaric activities diminishes. One day you find yourself doing things that once made you happy but you aren't happy at all, you're just doing it out of habit now, its just routine, you stop remembering why you even began to do it in the first place and even if you do remember it doesn't make sense anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: Enjoyment
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:55 am 
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There's nothing Buddhiat about Camus. His way is the way of finding some heroic virtue in the absence of the possibility of liberation. He was certainly an authentic individual and one who lived what he wrote, and he was a great writer, no question. But an heroic nihilist.

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 Post subject: Re: Enjoyment
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:06 pm 
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Camus definitely understood the First Noble Truth...just not sure about the rest;)

wisdom wrote:
I don't think its possible to enjoy Samsara. Its possible to experience enjoyment, but if its Samsaric then its marked with attachment, craving, clinging, and suffering.

So enjoyment is possible, but enjoyment with attachment is not. It probably seems like a point of semantics, but its the difference between acting from a place of liberation and freedom and living in a gold gilt cage. Ultimately once you get disgusted with the cycle of existence the joy you feel from Samsaric activities diminishes. One day you find yourself doing things that once made you happy but you aren't happy at all, you're just doing it out of habit now, its just routine, you stop remembering why you even began to do it in the first place and even if you do remember it doesn't make sense anymore.


I know what you are saying, even now there are things like that for me...however, at the same time I have periods where things feel, lighter I guess I would say, and it makes even daily tasks more pleasant, colors seem brighter, sounds are more interesting. Is this good or bad?

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 Post subject: Re: Enjoyment
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:06 pm 
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Neither nor.

It just is.

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 Post subject: Re: Enjoyment
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:12 pm 
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Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Camus definitely understood the First Noble Truth...just not sure about the rest;)

wisdom wrote:
I don't think its possible to enjoy Samsara. Its possible to experience enjoyment, but if its Samsaric then its marked with attachment, craving, clinging, and suffering.

So enjoyment is possible, but enjoyment with attachment is not. It probably seems like a point of semantics, but its the difference between acting from a place of liberation and freedom and living in a gold gilt cage. Ultimately once you get disgusted with the cycle of existence the joy you feel from Samsaric activities diminishes. One day you find yourself doing things that once made you happy but you aren't happy at all, you're just doing it out of habit now, its just routine, you stop remembering why you even began to do it in the first place and even if you do remember it doesn't make sense anymore.


I know what you are saying, even now there are things like that for me...however, at the same time I have periods where things feel, lighter I guess I would say, and it makes even daily tasks more pleasant, colors seem brighter, sounds are more interesting. Is this good or bad?


It's a positive sign, but it will change.

Leaving samsara does not mean that appearances disappear. Your pots and pans are not samsara. The appearance of your pots and pans will always be there. They are neither good nor bad unto themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: Enjoyment
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:55 pm 
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Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Is it possible to enjoy the temporary happiness of Samsaric existence?

....

What do you think?

There is experience beyond intellect. Why think "is it possible to enjoy"? Never experienced enjoyment? :sage:


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 Post subject: Re: Enjoyment
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:28 pm 
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ground wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Is it possible to enjoy the temporary happiness of Samsaric existence?

If so to what degree, and at what point are we clinging?

....

What do you think?

There is experience beyond intellect. Why think "is it possible to enjoy"? Never experienced enjoyment? :sage:


Thank you ground!!! At some point we must honor the words of the Buddha and allow our own experience to teach us, along with the sutras and our teachers!
How does one realize the fourth noble truth and NOT experience pure joy???

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 Post subject: Re: Enjoyment
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:32 pm 
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Johnny Dangerous wrote:
If so to what degree, and at what point are we clinging?

Seeking enjoyment, planing enjoyment, trying to maintain enjoyment, unhappy feeling when enjoyment subsides, happy feeling when enjoyment arises ... sense of self, I am enjoyment, enjoyment is mine, there is the right to enjoy, when there is enjoyment life is good, when there is no enjoyment life is bad :sage:


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 Post subject: Re: Enjoyment
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:00 pm 
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I enjoy ordinary things a lot more than I used to. Is it because of growing older? Some bit of familiarity with practice? I can't say. I can, however, affirm the value in letting yourself GET DOWN.

:cheers:

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 Post subject: Re: Enjoyment
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:14 pm 
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Jikan wrote:
I enjoy ordinary things a lot more than I used to. Is it because of growing older? Some bit of familiarity with practice? I can't say. I can, however, affirm the value in letting yourself GET DOWN.

:cheers:

Mmmmm... Jikan, you are talking my language!!!!!! :twothumbsup:

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 Post subject: Re: Enjoyment
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:16 pm 
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Jikan wrote:
I enjoy ordinary things a lot more than I used to. Is it because of growing older? Some bit of familiarity with practice? I can't say. I can, however, affirm the value in letting yourself GET DOWN.

:cheers:

That's goovy, can you dig it? :tongue:


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 Post subject: Re: Enjoyment
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:32 pm 
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Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Camus definitely understood the First Noble Truth...just not sure about the rest;)

wisdom wrote:
I don't think its possible to enjoy Samsara. Its possible to experience enjoyment, but if its Samsaric then its marked with attachment, craving, clinging, and suffering.

So enjoyment is possible, but enjoyment with attachment is not. It probably seems like a point of semantics, but its the difference between acting from a place of liberation and freedom and living in a gold gilt cage. Ultimately once you get disgusted with the cycle of existence the joy you feel from Samsaric activities diminishes. One day you find yourself doing things that once made you happy but you aren't happy at all, you're just doing it out of habit now, its just routine, you stop remembering why you even began to do it in the first place and even if you do remember it doesn't make sense anymore.


I know what you are saying, even now there are things like that for me...however, at the same time I have periods where things feel, lighter I guess I would say, and it makes even daily tasks more pleasant, colors seem brighter, sounds are more interesting. Is this good or bad?



Sounds like a good thing to me. When my connection to the rhythm of the universe feels strong, when I'm in harmony with it, my life force is stronger. I have more energy, feel more cheerful and positive about everything. Not only do I enjoy things I like more, things I don't like bother me less.


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 Post subject: Re: Enjoyment
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:35 pm 
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Jikan wrote:


I enjoy ordinary things a lot more than I used to. Is it because of growing older? Some bit of familiarity with practice? I can't say. I can, however, affirm the value in letting yourself GET DOWN.

:cheers:

:good: :good:

Bootsie and George get a big :bow:

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 Post subject: Re: Enjoyment
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:05 am 
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:smile:
Johnny:
There's a Buddhist "teaching story" .... rather like a Koan with a moral I guess .... that has some relevance to your question on "enjoyment" in a world of Samsara. It goes something like this.

A monk is traveling on a road through a jungle area.
He comes to a part of the road that winds uphill through that jungle.
As he climbs the hill he hears a Tiger. Up in front of him, coming toward him down the road is a hungery Tiger.
The monk sees a vine hanging off a nearby cliff. Thinking quickly he grabs that vine and swings out over the cliff and lowers himself off the road still clinging on to that vine, The Tiger above him looks down on him. For the mpment he's safe.
Then down below him on the road he hears another Tiger. It is also looking up at him .... there's no escape there.
So the monk hangs there unable to go up or down. Then a small mouse comes out of a hole above him, and begins nibbling on the very vine the monk is clinging to. The vine is starting to unravel becausr of that mouse's nibbling on it.
Looking around for some way of escape the monk spots a bunch of grapes on a nearby vine. They look nearly ripe and look delicious.
Stretching out, he picks a few grapes. He put's one grape into his mouth to taste it.
Delicious! Delicious!

:smile:

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 Post subject: Re: Enjoyment
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:30 pm 
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Jikan wrote:
GET DOWN.

Shake your Budai! This guy looks like he's enjoying himself, anyway:

Image


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