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 Post subject: Thoughts
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:01 am 
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I was pondering how immaterial things are reborn, for example thoughts. What exactly causes a thought to arise in the first place? After a thought ceases, in what ways are the preceding thoughts the same, how are they not the same?

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:08 am 
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They aren't born, they come from nowhere and go nowhere, they are just part of the flow of the stream.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:10 am 
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I dunno ,if dependent origination is a description of reality, then nothing comes from nothing, and that's why nothing is born or dies, because there is no ceasing to exist or coming into existence in reality, it only seems so due to obscured vision.

So, i'd opt for the idea that thoughts arise from previous thoughts, or maybe conditions created by thoughts, which in turn produce new conditions for thoughts arising upon consciousness that sees and forms views oN those thoughts etc..we cannot see all these causal connections clearly in meditation at our level (well, maybe you guys can, I can't!), but I think you can least intuit and infer some of it if you watch closely.

Thoughts being same or different, is again hard to answer since same and different are notions that only exist in a relative sense, Lankavatara says that things are only eternal in their non-eternality, I guess that would mean that technically thoughts are all different from one another? :shrug: :shrug:

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:14 pm 
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ghost01 wrote:
What exactly causes a thought to arise in the first place?

According to which vehicle and/or yoga?


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:10 am 
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Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
ghost01 wrote:
What exactly causes a thought to arise in the first place?

According to which vehicle and/or yoga?


According to your own observations. :P

I suppose thoughts aren't that important to what I was asking, my pondering was that our personality/identitys are immaterial things, and so I was wondering how they can be reborn. It's easy to see how a material thing is reborn, a tree for example.
So if our identities are made up of thoughts, views and idea's, I thought that would be a good place to look.

How do these things arise in the first place, do they cease? How are they reborn? The only thing I can say about it, is that perception seems to be necessary for these things to arise.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:51 am 
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Right perception, okay.

Independent solid me is born on a grasped thought. Hello here I am and how are you? Oops now you are born too! Come on, go away!

Caught in the stream of thoughts, or:

“It is completely natural that thoughts keep on arising. The point is not to try to stop them, but to liberate them. This is done by remaining in a state of simplicity, which lets thoughts arise and vanish again without stringing onto them any further thoughts. When you no longer perpetuate the movement of thoughts, they dissolve by themselves without leaving any trace. When you no longer spoil the state of stillness with mental fabrications, you can maintain the natural serenity of mind without any effort. Sometimes, let your thoughts flow and watch the unchanging nature behind them.” Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche

We certainly can use pointing guidance/practice!

:anjali:

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:04 pm 
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Also, with devotion there is openess to recieve the blessings by wise compassionate nature/Master for our practice. This I think is very important or we merely remain struggling with technical ideas about, or are attached to the idea to detach from thoughts.

Without guiding practice we fall back into our habitual thought hopping, like a roll of paper we stretch out, directly rolls back in its old condition.

Of course I can first analyse. :smile:

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:03 pm 
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ghost01 wrote:
Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
ghost01 wrote:
What exactly causes a thought to arise in the first place?

According to which vehicle and/or yoga?

According to your own observations. :P

What use would that be to anyone? :tongue:

Anyway:

Making thoughts is the act of dualistic fixation. Without these thoughts, we are free of the three times.
Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, As It Is, Vol. 1, p. 86.

And:

Understand the difference between buddha nature and its expression, which is thoughts. Thoughts appear in many different types. There is attachment, anger and stupidity; there are the fifty-one mental events, the eighty innate thought states, the eighty-four thousand disturbing emotions. No matter how many different types of content the mind can manifest as, they are all simply expressions of the nature of mind.
Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, As It Is, Vol. 1, p. 78.

When you figure that one out please let me know.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:34 pm 
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ghost01 wrote:
What exactly causes a thought to arise in the first place?

Causes are innumerable.
Quotes from Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche are just great.
Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche wrote:
No matter how many different types of content the mind can manifest as, they are all simply expressions of the nature of mind.

Just don't look for the source/mind, as you can only find it's expressions. Among many expressions, there is one called "I am", which is the root of all other expressions. It's also just an expression of the mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:41 pm 
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ghost01 wrote:
What exactly causes a thought to arise in the first place?

First there is movement/Impulse/stirring (sensed by body), then attention and contact (phassa) join in and a seed of thought arises nurtured by ongoing and growing attention and contact while sprouting thought nurtures attention and contact (interdependence).

ghost01 wrote:
After a thought ceases, in what ways are the preceding thoughts the same, how are they not the same?

When thought qua consciousness/conscious mental activity ceases there is nothing. :sage:


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:46 pm 
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"I dunno ,if dependent origination is a description of reality, then nothing comes from nothing, and that's why nothing is born or dies, because there is no ceasing to exist or coming into existence in reality, it only seems so due to obscured vision."



I very much concur. Thoughts are dependent on previous thoughts. Thoughts are born and die, but they don't come from nowhere and they don't go to nowhere. A thought is a unit of information. You may have a "thought" such as a phone number or street address, and later forget it. The "thought" for all intents and purposes does not exist, because you can't use it, but it may reappear later.
Thoughts arise from the mind, which arises from the existence of a living being, which arises from cause.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:04 pm 
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Thanks for all of the good insights and quotes, there's some good ones in here.

Quote:
Making thoughts is the act of dualistic fixation. Without these thoughts, we are free of the three times.
Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, As It Is, Vol. 1, p. 86.


:twothumbsup:

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