Rajapadanam sasanam- the king is the first donor

[Earth Dragon]

How to make Buddhism flourish again amongst humans? 

To cut the story short, in my opinion Buddhism has flourished only when it has strong State( government ) support. 
For example Asoka the Great, who made Buddhism international. And Trisong Deutsen, who brought Buddhism to Tibet.
And the rulers of Northen Chin dynasty, who fought wars to bring Buddhism to China.
And many more.... 

It seems to me that in term of government/politics and Buddhism, there have been 2 type of people , who have made things happen.
1) kings, governors or merchants, who strongly support Buddhism and want Buddhism to flourish
2) simple Buddhist, who by using skillful means, convince the rulers and the influential in society to support Buddhism
Or perheaps the both at the same time....

Even tough Dharma has spread around the globe, in my honest opinion it has much deteriorated. Myself is an example of this. I m a Buddhist, i like Buddhism, i study Buddhism, but compared to the ancient ones i am much less in many ways.

The world has changed soooooooo much in the last few centuries, but how much has Buddhism changed? It is true it has speread and now we have Buddhism in the West as well (or remains of what there used to be). But besides this, are there new teachings emerging, new philosophers, greater temples, Buddhist univeristies. And most importantly, are there more people who live and breathe Dharma? 

So my point is- we can clearly see that Buddha Dharma has been successful at times when Government sponsors the overall spreading of Buddhism. 
In Pali language there is even a saying- rajapadanam sasanam ( the first donor is the king ). 
This line was told to me by a Burmese monk ( one of few countries where buddhism is still popular and practiced, but also deteriorating).

We live in a global age of rapid changes and we can not predict what is ahead. According to prophecies, nothing good in coming near future.

Regardless to this fact, would it not be great if Buddhism would flourish again ( I do not consider buddhism spreading globally already flourishing ). But how? 

Surely it can not be in the same form as traditional Buddhism in Tibet, China, India or anywhere else. It should be a somehow revolutionized version, which is done under the guidance of old lamas, sifus, teachers, monks and scholars. In my opinion, computers and IT have much to do with the changes... 

But most importantly, it is the government regulatory body who must have the right attitude and approach. Then the rest of the society will follow....

What is needed from a goverment?
1) tons of money to do buddhist projects
2) government should appoint the right people in charge of this sort of activities, Buddhist who are efficient (Guru Rinpoche for example ) 

So which government has the potential and muscles to do so? 
America? No 
 India? No
China? ......?

In my opinion , China is ripe to engage with Buddhism. As a matter of fact, they are already the biggest Buddhist donors, but much of their Buddhism is very political and in opposition with Dalai.

But china has all the preconditions to become a major  Buddhist state.
They can t stop people to be religious as they are open to international trade and Tianmen square would not work anymore. The motivation for them to support Buddhism is to avoid the rapid growth if christianity and islam in china, which are considered alien cultures and too mixed with origin countries.

Surely china has enough funds to make buddhism big again ....

Chinese have had a religious vacuum for decades but in recent decade, people have become more and more interested  in Buddhism ( a fact that i have personally witnessed ).

Chinese buddhism is very rich, if we consider Tibetan buddhism as part if chinese buddhism.

And lets face it, it is ridiculous to even think that china is ever going to give tibet back. And they are a leading superpower, so what is the point of protesting and yelling - " free tibet ". 
Does not buddhism teach us not to engage with illusions? 

So the main point of this long story is- in my opinion, experience and analysis, China has the strongest potential to become a major state donor for Buddhism, which allows to realize new and innovative changes in Buddhism, resulting the popularization and general understanding and practice of Buddhism.

I m open to all ideas and suggestions....

 

[Konchog1]

Welcome to the Kali Yuga, the Dark Age.

I think the best we can do is become masters ourselves and influence those around us.

Many of you know what I'm talking about. The master's presence, his charisma that causes you to heed his words.

[Earth Dragon]

Welcome to the Kali Yuga, the Dark Age.

I think the best we can do is become masters ourselves and influence those around us.

Many of you know what I'm talking about. The master's presence, his charisma that causes you to heed his words.

Konchog Jugney, one of Padma's 25 diciples?
I agree, Kali Yuga and things will only get worse. But it is still nice to speculate

[Konchog1]

Konchog Jugney, one of Padma's 25 diciples?

I wish It's part of my Refuge Name, Konchog Namdag. It was given to me by Garchen Rinpoche, Konchog Gyaltsen.

[Salomon]

Very interesting Topic, Thank you for this.

I know a friend who is from China and he is working for the government. And guess what, he is completely interested in the Dharma, just recently due to what I have experienced.
He was already in the knowledge of the Dharma, but from my example, he has been much more into it now.

I also believe that our example will change people around us if we live the teaching.

You have somehow convinced me that China may become important for Buddhism, it sounds right from what you have shared.

Can you Earth Dragon say a little bit more about the Dark Age and what would be the reasons why it will get worse?

Thank you

[Earth Dragon]

Very interesting Topic, Thank you for this.

I know a friend who is from China and he is working for the government. And guess what, he is completely interested in the Dharma, just recently due to what I have experienced.
He was already in the knowledge of the Dharma, but from my example, he has been much more into it now.

I also believe that our example will change people around us if we live the teaching.

You have somehow convinced me that China may become important for Buddhism, it sounds right from what you have shared.

Can you Earth Dragon say a little bit more about the Dark Age and what would be the reasons why it will get worse?

Thank you

Have a look under Kali Yuga.
http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.co ... _Cosmology

As much as i know, it is a degenerate age, where people lose the ability and wish to understand amd practice Dharma.
Brother will kill a brother, son will sell the mother, there will be blood and wars. As for the Dharma, in the end people will not even recognize the symbols anymore. And then comes our hero and saviour- Maitreija.

[Poorbitch]

In my opinion , China is ripe to engage with Buddhism. As a matter of fact, they are already the biggest Buddhist donors, but much of their Buddhism is very political and in opposition with Dalai.

But china has all the preconditions to become a major  Buddhist state.
They can t stop people to be religious as they are open to international trade and Tianmen square would not work anymore. The motivation for them to support Buddhism is to avoid the rapid growth if christianity and islam in china, which are considered alien cultures and too mixed with origin countries.

Surely china has enough funds to make buddhism big again ....

Chinese have had a religious vacuum for decades but in recent decade, people have become more and more interested  in Buddhism ( a fact that i have personally witnessed ).

Chinese buddhism is very rich, if we consider Tibetan buddhism as part if chinese buddhism.

And lets face it, it is ridiculous to even think that china is ever going to give tibet back. And they are a leading superpower, so what is the point of protesting and yelling - " free tibet ". 
Does not buddhism teach us not to engage with illusions? 

So the main point of this long story is- in my opinion, experience and analysis, China has the strongest potential to become a major state donor for Buddhism, which allows to realize new and innovative changes in Buddhism, resulting the popularization and general understanding and practice of Buddhism.

I m open to all ideas and suggestions....

 

[deepbluehum]

Even today rich Taiwanese are the main sponsors of all kinds of Buddhism. But who do they sponsor? The higher lamas. If we want others to spread the wealth, it is our responsibility to attain realization. Then of course the wealthy will benefit and give donation to support dharma.

[JKhedrup]

But who do they sponsor? The higher lamas

Not only the higher lamas. All of the Vajrayana monks and nuns from Taiwan who I am friends with (and I know quite a few)receive excellent support from Taiwanese laypeople to study, practice and sit retreat full time. They are members of both the Gelug and Karma Kagyu traditions. I have yet to come across a Vajrayana monk or nun of Taiwanese origin who was forced to work a lay job in order to sustain themselves, while this is common with Western monks and nuns.

[Tara]

... And lets face it, it is ridiculous to even think that china is ever going to give tibet back.

The Tibetans want autonomy. His Holiness is not asking for Tibet to be "given back"

And they are a leading superpower, so what is the point of protesting and yelling - " free tibet ". 

The point is Tibetan people (approximately 6 million, that is roughly 2 million more people than the population of New Zealand) want freedom to speak their own language, freedom from oppression and torture, freedom to practice Buddhism without interference from the Chinese authorities in Beijing and to be afforded basic human rights. The Tibetan language and culture is distinct. (My experience is having lived and worked for more than three years as a volunteer in a large Tibetan exiled community in India where I got to know Tibetan people from all walks of life including Tibetan laypeople, two of the 14 Drapchi singing nuns, an ex member of the Kashag, newly arrived refugees including many monks and nuns, Tibetan business people, artisans working to keep the arts and crafts of Tibet alive, Lamas, Geshe and Tulku, a full spectrum of the exiled Tibetan society.)

News and other articles (some historical) about life for Tibetans in Tibet:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 74940.html - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palden_Gyatso
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/fe ... deepramesh
http://72.32.136.41/files/documents/Sin ... Escape.pdf
*warning contains extremely graphic images and violence* http://ciccib.wordpress.com/2012/12/27/ ... -tibetans/
http://www.tibetjustice.org/reports/un/torture.pdf
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... f36861.8e1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgadUdNcRZU
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=7050#p84482

There are many articles online if one googles "torture + Tibet".

[JKhedrup]

And they are a leading superpower, so what is the point of protesting and yelling - " free tibet ".

The point is to draw the world's attention to a culture, language and religious tradition that are on the verge of being wiped out in their homeland because of a vile,totalitarian political system that persecutes people not just in Tibet, but throughout every region of China.

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

... what is the point of protesting and yelling - " free tibet ".

Compassion is neither silent nor passive.

[Pero]

But most importantly, it is the government regulatory body who must have the right attitude and approach. Then the rest of the society will follow....

What is needed from a goverment?
1) tons of money to do buddhist projects
2) government should appoint the right people in charge of this sort of activities, Buddhist who are efficient (Guru Rinpoche for example ) 
... 

I pray that these ideas of yours never comes true. Government and religion should be separate, even if that religion is Buddhism.

[wisdom]

I have mixed feelings about China. I don't want innocent people to suffer, but I want the Chinese government to come to an end. I want their political power scattered to the winds. I want their wealth to collapse and vanish like smoke. I want those responsible for the perpetuation of the many horrors they have inflicted on people to come to the realization that what they are doing is severely in error, I want them to feel remorse for what they've done so they can develop real compassion for others and stop perpetuating pointless suffering.

[Earth Dragon]

But most importantly, it is the government regulatory body who must have the right attitude and approach. Then the rest of the society will follow....

What is needed from a goverment?
1) tons of money to do buddhist projects
2) government should appoint the right people in charge of this sort of activities, Buddhist who are efficient (Guru Rinpoche for example ) 
... 

I pray that these ideas of yours never comes true. Government and religion should be separate, even if that religion is Buddhism.

If you want to pray then become a christian. In Pali language sutras, there is a saying - rajapadanam sasanam. This means the king ( government ) is and should be the first donor. Have a look at history- tibet for example. When did buddhism come to tibet? When the king Trisong Deutsen and Songtsen supported buddhism. When did buddhism backcome "big" and statrted spreading? It was when Asoka the Great (previously known as Asoka the Terrible) supported buddhism.

Asoka the Great is a good example for modern Western Dharma students of the difference between Asian/ Eastern and Modern Western mind sets. Asoka was a great hero, murderer of many, warlord, king, husband to tens if not hundereds. He was everything that a modern buddhits prays not to be. At the same time , thanks to him we have buddhism.

He concured such a vast land (over 2000 years ago) and of all the religions he chose buddhism and spread it. Before him buddhism was tiny and small. He built thenfirst temple, he supported the sangha, he made buddhism popular.

He used his political power.

Buddhism in china? The emperors in china went to war with not 1 but 2 countries to bring Kumarajiva to Chang An. They killed and concured to bring Buddha Dharma to China.

And lastly, lets speculate on Siddharta himself? Wasnt he a retired politician? He was the son of a king, he was educated warlord and politician and tactician. He was not born as a beggar, not a mechanic or a shopkeeper. He was born in the highest political famaily, that is where he got his childhood experience.

So your think and analyse before you start praying...

[Johnny Dangerous]

nevermind, stayin out.

[Earth Dragon]

I have mixed feelings about China. I don't want innocent people to suffer, but I want the Chinese government to come to an end. I want their political power scattered to the winds. I want their wealth to collapse and vanish like smoke. I want those responsible for the perpetuation of the many horrors they have inflicted on people to come to the realization that what they are doing is severely in error, I want them to feel remorse for what they've done so they can develop real compassion for others and stop perpetuating pointless suffering.

Mao Tsedung passed away long ago. Those in power now have actually done a lot for the people. And I don t think justice exisits. At least from a political point of view.

Instead of wanting this and that from china, i pray that there would be someone in china or somehwere else who would make large scale buddhist projects and events happen, which would reform buddhim ,so it would be more adaptable to young people and not lose its juicy and meaning. I wish governemnts would support sanghas, so they do not have to fight and pursue after private donors, i wish there would be free buddhists universities with the best teachers and equipment and computers etc., i wish governments would sponsor building numerous temples and shrines not for tourism purposes only, i wish there would be more "true men" .

But i think living in this degenerate time as we do, they might only remain as wishes.

[Earth Dragon]

Are you actually advocating some kind of violence or forceful use of the state to spread Buddhadharma, or just trying to make some kind of point?

No i am not advocating the use of violence. I m just trying to make a point to think out of the box.

In my life, i have helped building temples, i have organized several academic international Buddhist conferences, i have sponsored monks, i am trying to build a temple now and i am involved in several buddhist projects.

So far i have supported all these activites from my personal business income, which is seperate to buddhism. In doing all those things, i have met so many buddhists, from all the traditions and countries.

So my point is- after doing all those things, i find that it is important to have the governments support and i think china is a good candidate.

If some people say- china was bad and has done all these bad things, then i say- things change. And then i compare this with asoka the great. He was a king who became the biggest buddhist donor. He was the opposite of modern buddhist ideal before he became so great.

[Earth Dragon]

... And lets face it, it is ridiculous to even think that china is ever going to give tibet back.

The Tibetans want autonomy. His Holiness is not asking for Tibet to be "given back"

And they are a leading superpower, so what is the point of protesting and yelling - " free tibet ". 

The point is Tibetan people (approximately 6 million, that is roughly 2 million more people than the population of New Zealand) want freedom to speak their own language, freedom from oppression and torture, freedom to practice Buddhism without interference from the Chinese authorities in Beijing and to be afforded basic human rights. The Tibetan language and culture is distinct. (My experience is having lived and worked for more than three years as a volunteer in a large Tibetan exiled community in India where I got to know Tibetan people from all walks of life including Tibetan laypeople, two of the 14 Drapchi singing nuns, an ex member of the Kashag, newly arrived refugees including many monks and nuns, Tibetan business people, artisans working to keep the arts and crafts of Tibet alive, Lamas, Geshe and Tulku, a full spectrum of the exiled Tibetan society.)

News and other articles (some historical) about life for Tibetans in Tibet:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 74940.html - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palden_Gyatso
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/fe ... deepramesh
http://72.32.136.41/files/documents/Sin ... Escape.pdf
*warning contains extremely graphic images and violence* http://ciccib.wordpress.com/2012/12/27/ ... -tibetans/
http://www.tibetjustice.org/reports/un/torture.pdf
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... f36861.8e1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgadUdNcRZU
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=7050#p84482

There are many articles online if one googles "torture + Tibet".

My apologies to anyone i have offended with my words. I wish that Tibet would still be as it was before 1950-ties. I wish that china would have not had such a destructive policy as they had or still have.
My point is- china is one of the most strongest political governments at the present time. They rule Tibet and there is nothing you , I nor the Tibetan can do about it.

From my experience, living in Beijing, Shanghai, Chengdu, Guangzhou for several year now- Tibetan buddhism is becoming very popular and chinese governemnt is allowing it to grow. They are not directly against Buddhism at all (anymore) , they are even supportive.

But Tibet is a very political and sensitve issue for the chinese government and it can only be handled politically, carefully and wisely. My point is, when i say China and Buddhism and Tibet then peoples reaction is very bad and i understand why as well.

But if we say America and black people, we do not feel or think anything wrong. America even has a black president now. But there were times when blacks were slaves in even worse conditions then the Tibetans in china ( this is just an example ). Somehow things changed. What i tryed to say before was, china has potential to do a lot of good for buddhism and there are skillful ways how to make it happen. Opposing china will not bring a solution.

I am very sorry for the loss of the great culture of tibet and what has happen over the last 70 years with and in tibet, but i live in 2013. Things change

[Konchog1]

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Are you actually advocating some kind of violence or forceful use of the state to spread Buddhadharma, or just trying to make some kind of point?

Isn't that what Padmasambhava did?

"Hello, where does your god live?"
"In that mountain."
"Ok thanks, I'll be back in 30 minutes to teach you the Dharma once I've forced your god to serve me"

I'm not saying that spreading the Dharma by force is good or even acceptable. But shunning such use of force doesn't make sense either.