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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:33 am 
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You just said that you refuse to change just to stay here and demanded a reason for "participating in certain practices." Then you said that your not here to change your practice, but dude... where did anybody ask you to change or take up any new practice? Where are these sore feelings if not your own? This is why it is so exasperating trying to talk with you. Its totally a one-sided conversation. I said I was done, but don't you see how inconsistent you are?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:46 am 
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My personal practice is pretty stable now, but as I investigate subtler realities my views towards the teachings have changed, there are views that although make perfect sense to me are very difficult to express to others. One reason why I'm here is to gain another view of the teaching, I pick up little gems of info from the people here and they help to round over my understanding of the dharma. I'm not a closed book but the changes in my views are very subtle.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:28 pm 
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lowlydog wrote:
So there is no such thing as "Buddhist religion";

Wishful thinking?
If there were no buddhist religion then "buddhism" could neither be heard not read.

It is a hungry ghost phenomenon: When there is the arising of ideas of "something", i.e. a state or happiness or a better life etc to be achievable by means of {this or that} then this is the arising of religion. :sage:


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:56 pm 
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Then there is also the (common) phenomenon of (apparently) eschewing religion in order to worship at the altar of ego. The ultimate religion. Any takers? ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:08 pm 
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ground wrote:
lowlydog wrote:
So there is no such thing as "Buddhist religion";

Wishful thinking?
If there were no buddhist religion then "buddhism" could neither be heard not read.

It is a hungry ghost phenomenon: When there is the arising of ideas of "something", i.e. a state or happiness or a better life etc to be achievable by means of {this or that} then this is the arising of religion. :sage:

Even though it is a hungry ghost phenomenon religious belief - regardless of what religion it is, buddhism, christianity, islam, etc. - may entail a life of contentment, confidence, peace and happiness if belief is continuously cultivated. So each religion fullfils its intended purpose regardless of the achievable goals it posits. It is the focused cultivation of consciousness which entails exclusion of ideas that tend to disturb that may cause temporary relief of stress. So there is nothing to say against religion. It is not necessary for all but it may be helpful for some or many. :sage:


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:47 pm 
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ground wrote:
Even though it is a hungry ghost phenomenon religious belief - regardless of what religion it is, buddhism, christianity, islam, etc. - may entail a life of contentment, confidence, peace and happiness if belief is continuously cultivated. So each religion fullfils its intended purpose regardless of the achievable goals it posits. It is the focused cultivation of consciousness which entails exclusion of ideas that tend to disturb that may cause temporary relief of stress. So there is nothing to say against religion. It is not necessary for all but it may be helpful for some or many. :sage:


You may have just said this, I find it hard to follow your writing. The technique I practice allows for insights to become apparent, these insights do not only temporarily relieve stress they act as barriers to prevent one from taking the action that leads to stress, permanently relieving one of certain levels of stress and I imagine will ultimately cure one from taking action that leads to any stress.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:20 pm 
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Just rely on yourself/your experience. When you have found your mode of doing or non doing let it be your mode. There is no self beyond the dependent arising of a sense of self and its subsiding. Therefore just rely on yourself, self confidence is appropriate. If religion is your mode let religion be your mode. If non-religion is your mode let non-religion be your mode. Temporary, permanently ... conditioned ideas. :sage:


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:01 pm 
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ground wrote:
Even though it is a hungry ghost phenomenon religious belief - regardless of what religion it is, buddhism, christianity, islam, etc. - may entail a life of contentment, confidence, peace and happiness if belief is continuously cultivated.
That applies to any belief, even to the belief that you have. That is, the belief that what you say is actually relevant.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:27 pm 
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lowlydog wrote:
Jikan wrote:
That would require you to, first, actually learn about such practices and their rationales. You have shown an unwillingness to do this so far.

I should also ask: has anyone invited you to participate in these practices? If not, then how is this even a problem for you?


I'm not here to start practicing a different technique, I'm here for another purpose and I'm sorry if it is causing sore feelings it is not my intention. My current beliefs are as they are. They are open and I do listen and take what is said to heart.


Then why are you concerned about it? Why are you asking for rationales, or more importantly, throwing around judgments, if you are not interested in taking up the practice?

Goenka's practice is a good practice. It's helped a great number of people. If it is helpful to you, in the sense of making you a kinder and wiser person, then practice it and be happy.

:namaste:

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:18 pm 
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Jikan wrote:

Then why are you concerned about it? Why are you asking for rationales, or more importantly, throwing around judgments, if you are not interested in taking up the practice?


I am just openly discussing my understanding of the dharma, it is the forum itself that has a problem with certain things I view as dharma. I believe that at the core of the teachings we are all practicing the same thing and must practice the same thing in order for liberation to occur. People are already associating goenka practice as theravaden and asking me to go next door to dhamma wheel, this is the heart of what I'm getting at. I have no interest in segregating teachings, my interest is in unifying(simplifying) the teachings, so all beings can get along.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:04 pm 
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Which brings us back to what seems to be the source of confusion.

This forum is, again, clearly noted as "a Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism." Users come here to find out about and discuss those topics.

Our sister site is dedicated to Theravadan and related topics.

Goenka is more closely related to Theravada.

Therefore, you will be more likely to have a thoughtful discussion on Goenka there.

Many posters here have already chosen Mahayana or Vajrayana paths, and really have little or no interest in discussing Goenka. Many have already found his techniques are not for them. This is the "we"/"you" that you mentioned previously. Can you see that when a poster (you or anyone else) attempts to validate Goenka's technique, there will naturally be some negative responses? It's not personal against you; it's just that this board exists to discuss something else. If you come to learn, and ask relevant questions, say, How does Goenka vipassana technique differ from Vajrayana and how does this affect practice? or some such thing, a useful discussion may ensue. But to come and say, My teacher says this about our technique and what do you think? - well, you'll get answers from a Mahayana/Vajrayana POV, and they might not be very positive. Does that make sense?


Perhaps you might try to find a Goenka discussion forum where others who are interested in that technique are involved. :shrug:


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:08 pm 
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lowlydog wrote:
I believe that at the core of the teachings we are all practicing the same thing and must practice the same thing in order for liberation to occur.
Must we? Says who? And what is this "thing" we have to practice?
Another question: Do those practicing (for example) animal sacrifices to propitiate their gods practice the same thing as me and you?
Quote:
People are already associating goenka practice as theravaden and asking me to go next door to dhamma wheel, this is the heart of what I'm getting at. I have no interest in segregating teachings, my interest is in unifying(simplifying) the teachings, so all beings can get along.
Has it ever occured to you that nobody cares what you want to do? Has it also ever occured to you that some of us are happy with complex teachings and can get along just fine with others (when they are not dancing a jig on our toes with jackboots)?
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:22 pm 
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justsit wrote:
Which brings us back to what seems to be the source of confusion.

This forum is, again, clearly noted as "a Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism." Users come here to find out about and discuss those topics.

Our sister site is dedicated to Theravadan and related topics.

Goenka is more closely related to Theravada.

Therefore, you will be more likely to have a thoughtful discussion on Goenka there.

Many posters here have already chosen Mahayana or Vajrayana paths, and really have little or no interest in discussing Goenka. Many have already found his techniques are not for them. This is the "we"/"you" that you mentioned previously. Can you see that when a poster (you or anyone else) attempts to validate Goenka's technique, there will naturally be some negative responses? It's not personal against you; it's just that this board exists to discuss something else. If you come to learn, and ask relevant questions, say, How does Goenka vipassana technique differ from Vajrayana and how does this affect practice? or some such thing, a useful discussion may ensue. But to come and say, My teacher says this about our technique and what do you think? - well, you'll get answers from a Mahayana/Vajrayana POV, and they might not be very positive. Does that make sense?


Perhaps you might try to find a Goenka discussion forum where others who are interested in that technique are involved. :shrug:


Then simply do not respond to my threads or posts that do not interest you. You do not speak for the "all" just the "many". I am quite well aware that my views of dharma are not shared by the masses, but that does not make them invalid.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:38 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
lowlydog wrote:
I believe that at the core of the teachings we are all practicing the same thing and must practice the same thing in order for liberation to occur.
Must we? Says who? And what is this "thing" we have to practice?


Morality
mastery of the mind
experiencial wisdom
greg wrote:
Another question: Do those practicing (for example) animal sacrifices to propitiate their gods practice the same thing as me and you?


You should not kill. Why should you not kill? If somebody comes and kills you, you certainly don't like it. Therefore when you try to kill somebody, that person won't like it. What you don't like, others don't like. So refrain from actions which, if performed by others towards you, you won't like. You should not do something which will hurt or harm others. Therefore don't kill. S.N.Goenka

greg wrote:
Has it ever occured to you that nobody cares what you want to do?


some bodies don't care and some bodies do care.

greg wrote:
Has it also ever occured to you that some of us are happy with complex teachings and can get along just fine with others (when they are not dancing a jig on our toes with jackboots)?
:namaste:


Then take your practices to the next level and learn to be happy in all environments jackboots and all.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:42 pm 
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OK, bye :hi:


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:52 pm 
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You say you're not religious Lowlydog, but this is not much different from Christian proselytizing, saying you have the One True Way (in one sense or another), saying that people should just put up with your intolerance of their beliefs (otherwise they're being intolerant), and evading any actual debate on specifics whatsoever.

Why not just start a thread of comparative meditation or something like Justsit said? Seems like a total waste of time to defensively assert your non-position over and over like this.

Also as Justsit said, while you may not consider yourself a Theravedin, you'd at least find people at Dhammawheel who do something much closer to your meditation form. I gather that many if not most on here are Mahayana/Vajrayana folks, and are not really interest in overall debate about it's validity, this being a Mahayana site most already accept that it is their preferred form.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:18 pm 
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And I quote:
lowlydog wrote:
I have no interest in segregating teachings, my interest is in unifying(simplifying) the teachings, so all beings can get along.
But now you are saying that you do segregate some teachings. You are saying that those who teach animal sacrifice are wrong. So which is it to be? Unifying all or segregating some? More hypocrisy? What??? :shrug:
Quote:
Then take your practices to the next level and learn to be happy in all environments jackboots and all.
Why don't you take your practice to the next level and take off the jackboots?

And just in case you did not know: Being a Buddhist (especially Vajrayana) is not the same thing as being a doormat.

Image

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:25 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
And I quote:
lowlydog wrote:
I have no interest in segregating teachings, my interest is in unifying(simplifying) the teachings, so all beings can get along.
But now you are saying that you do segregate some teachings. You are saying that those who teach animal sacrifice are wrong. So which is it to be? Unifying all or segregating some? More hypocrisy? What??? :shrug:
Quote:
Then take your practices to the next level and learn to be happy in all environments jackboots and all.
Why don't you take your practice to the next level and take off the jackboots?

And just in case you did not know: Being a Buddhist (especially Vajrayana) is not the same thing as being a doormat.

Image


Animal sacrifice is ritualistic behaviour and is clearly what I have a disagreement with. c-mon you can do better than that.

Never realized I was wearing jackboots. What are jackboots anyway?

Agreed, the buddha did not teach us to be walked over. Not, "especially vajrayana", but period. The 8-fold path will not turn anyone into a doormat.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:44 pm 
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Hold on, how did "animal sacrifice" get worked into this? Who is sacrificing animals, and according to whom?

I thought this thread was about Goenka...

:shrug:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:03 am 
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Sorry, I'm to blame for that one! :D I was just interested in seeing how far lowlydog will go with the "unifying all teachings" thing.
:focus:

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