What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Mahayana

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
JKhedrup
Posts: 2328
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am

What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Mahayana

Post by JKhedrup »

For myself, at the top of the heap is definitely the Bodhisattvacaryavatara by the Son of the Conquerors Shantideva.

The Avatamsaka is also my lists of favourites.
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21938
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Post by Grigoris »

Lankavatara Sutra and/or the Heart Sutra.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17090
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Diamond and Heart Sutra.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
lowlydog
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:50 pm

Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Post by lowlydog »

Who do you need to convince?
Jnana
Posts: 1106
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:58 pm

Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Post by Jnana »

JKhedrup wrote:For myself, at the top of the heap is definitely the Bodhisattvacaryavatara by the Son of the Conquerors Shantideva.
If you're referring to Mahāyāna apologetics then Śāntideva's Bodhicaryāvatāra is a good source. However, Bhāviveka's Madhyamakahṛdayakārika & Tarkajvālā (Chapter 4) is one of the most comprehensive treatments of the issue. (A good English translation can be found in Bhāviveka and His Buddhist Opponents by Malcolm David Eckel.)

:buddha1:
lowlydog
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:50 pm

Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Post by lowlydog »

lowlydog wrote:Who do you need to convince?
Let me add to this as it has been pointed out to me that this cab be read as offensive.

Who are you building a case against, or for? Why do you feel mahayana needs convincing? What area in particular are you concerned about? I wouldn't think it needs any convincing, plenty of enlightened beings produced from this tradition.
DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9466
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Post by DGA »

lowlydog wrote:
lowlydog wrote:Who do you need to convince?
Let me add to this as it has been pointed out to me that this cab be read as offensive.
I'm not sure what you mean here; it sounds like you're criticizing yourself, which is probably not what you mean. What do you mean by "cab" here? Please help us understand you.
Who are you building a case against, or for? Why do you feel mahayana needs convincing? What area in particular are you concerned about? I wouldn't think it needs any convincing, plenty of enlightened beings produced from this tradition.
I don't expect anyone is trying to convince Mahayana of anything, because Mahayana is not a person, and to the best of my knowledge, only people can be convinced. Or perhaps you were trying to make a different point?
DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9466
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Post by DGA »

I like The Awakening of Faith.

I don't think the texts are the most appealing aspects of Mahayana practice, though. This is a great philosophical and literary treasury, to be sure, but I'm more interested in the people I've met and the practices I've been exposed to. Being around people who "get it" is more convincing than any syllogism or parable.

Namo Buddhaya.
lowlydog
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:50 pm

Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Post by lowlydog »

Jikan wrote:
lowlydog wrote:
lowlydog wrote:Who do you need to convince?
Let me add to this as it has been pointed out to me that this cab be read as offensive.
I'm not sure what you mean here; it sounds like you're criticizing yourself, which is probably not what you mean. What do you mean by "cab" here? Please help us understand you.
Who are you building a case against, or for? Why do you feel mahayana needs convincing? What area in particular are you concerned about? I wouldn't think it needs any convincing, plenty of enlightened beings produced from this tradition.
I don't expect anyone is trying to convince Mahayana of anything, because Mahayana is not a person, and to the best of my knowledge, only people can be convinced. Or perhaps you were trying to make a different point?
cab was a typo can was the correct word.
It was explained to me in a PM what the question was really about. It is relating to validation of the differences between arahant and buddhas in the mahayana path. And he is looking for suttras that validate this difference in the teaching. Correct?
Admin_PC
Former staff member
Posts: 4860
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:17 pm

Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Post by Admin_PC »

lowlydog wrote:
lowlydog wrote:Who do you need to convince?
Let me add to this as it has been pointed out to me that this cab be read as offensive.

Who are you building a case against, or for? Why do you feel mahayana needs convincing? What area in particular are you concerned about? I wouldn't think it needs any convincing, plenty of enlightened beings produced from this tradition.
lowlydog,
Not sure if this is what JKhedrup's referring to, but lately there's a lot of speculation coming out of Theravadan camps that Mahayana is just made up stuff, a totally different religion.
One of the videos below goes so far as to call it the "work of Mara".
When it comes to realized beings, these Theravadan fundamentalists would probably say there weren't any.
When noobs (like myself) come across this stuff, it creates a sort of crisis of wanting to understand how it all fits together.
Like I said, not sure JKhedrup's case, but he may be trying to convince someone not to buy into the fundamentalism.

Each one of the videos below links to multiple videos bashing Mahayana in favor of a Theravadan orthodoxy.
Dhammavuddho and Brian Ruhe seem to have a particular penchant for hating on Mahayana, they've both devoted many many vids to the topic.
http://youtu.be/VkhcIyrq8Hs
http://youtu.be/SyTglpuCwQs
http://youtu.be/GDI6VYAMzIA
http://youtu.be/UXdyuE6CfmQ (i think this cat is brian ruhe's teacher)
http://youtu.be/wj8ROh7dyHE (mara made mahayana)

EDIT:
As far as sutras/suttas to validate Arahant vs Buddha, one need only look at any sutta in the Pali literature where the Buddha rebukes one of his Arahant disciples for teaching incorrectly. He gets on Shariputra at least once for not teaching to someone's capacities. I think that may be one of the reasons Shariputra gets singled out in so many Mahayana sutras.
Last edited by Admin_PC on Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
deepbluehum
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Post by deepbluehum »

JKhedrup wrote:For myself, at the top of the heap is definitely the Bodhisattvacaryavatara by the Son of the Conquerors Shantideva.

The Avatamsaka is also my lists of favourites.

Lankavatara. MMK
Jnana
Posts: 1106
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:58 pm

Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Post by Jnana »

PorkChop wrote:Not sure if this is what JKhedrup's referring to, but lately there's a lot of speculation coming out of Theravadan camps that Mahayana is just made up stuff, a totally different religion.
There's nothing new about about adherents of various Śrāvakayāna traditions criticizing the Mahāyāna. It goes back well over 1500 years, which is why there have been responses from mahāyānika authors in texts such as the Mahāyānasūtrālamkāra, the Tarkajvālā , and the Bodhicaryāvatāra.
Admin_PC
Former staff member
Posts: 4860
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:17 pm

Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Post by Admin_PC »

Jnana wrote:
PorkChop wrote:Not sure if this is what JKhedrup's referring to, but lately there's a lot of speculation coming out of Theravadan camps that Mahayana is just made up stuff, a totally different religion.
There's nothing new about about adherents of various Śrāvakayāna traditions criticizing the Mahāyāna. It goes back well over 1500 years, which is why there have been responses from mahāyānika authors in texts such as the Mahāyānasūtrālamkāra, the Tarkajvālā , and the Bodhicaryāvatāra.
Thanks for the heads up on the books!
I'll make sure to check them out.
My main way to deal with those vids was to read enough of the Pali Suttas to see where they were/are wrong...
I find it funny that the first candidate for most of the fundamentalists to pick on is Pure Land, because it parallels almost verbatim with the form of practice the Buddha told his householder disciple Mahanama in the Pali Suttas.
At this point though, I just look at the end result.
I'd rather be like the Mahayana & Vajrayana monks I've met than the Sravakayana ones.
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17090
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Porkchop wrote:I'd rather be like the Mahayana & Vajrayana monks I've met than the Sravakayana ones.
:good:

Seconded, really the best endorsement for any practice I think, open hearted people are inspirations regardless of one's initial biases.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
lowlydog
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:50 pm

Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Post by lowlydog »

PorkChop wrote:
lowlydog wrote:
lowlydog wrote:Who do you need to convince?
Let me add to this as it has been pointed out to me that this cab be read as offensive.

Who are you building a case against, or for? Why do you feel mahayana needs convincing? What area in particular are you concerned about? I wouldn't think it needs any convincing, plenty of enlightened beings produced from this tradition.
lowlydog,
Not sure if this is what JKhedrup's referring to, but lately there's a lot of speculation coming out of Theravadan camps that Mahayana is just made up stuff, a totally different religion.
One of the videos below goes so far as to call it the "work of Mara".
When it comes to realized beings, these Theravadan fundamentalists would probably say there weren't any.
When noobs (like myself) come across this stuff, it creates a sort of crisis of wanting to understand how it all fits together.
Like I said, not sure JKhedrup's case, but he may be trying to convince someone not to buy into the fundamentalism.
This is why I do not care to be associated with theravaden or mahayana or any religious group, not because the teaching is not true, but because of this petty arguing that takes place. I simply practice and as a result my life has been improving and the lives of those surrounding me also benifit from this. I feel that the theravaden path is genuine and also the mahayana path is genuine, but what makes them genuine are those individuals who are doing the work.

I attend a theravaden discussion group a couple times a month and recently I mentioned that I joined an online mahayana group and one of the members groaned with distain and made a rude comment, so I know what you are talking about. I have the same difficulties there expressing my take on the dharma as I am met with here. Some refuse to accept the goenka method as valid.

I will say though that the monks at the temple are very helpful and open minded, and they moderate the discussions very well and would not tolerate the bashing of another tradition.
Yudron
Posts: 1087
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:55 pm

Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Post by Yudron »

It is the heart aspect of the Mahayana that turns me on, not philosophical books in translation. So:

Start Where You Are

Pema Chodron
Admin_PC
Former staff member
Posts: 4860
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:17 pm

Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Post by Admin_PC »

lowlydog wrote:This is why I do not care to be associated with theravaden or mahayana or any religious group, not because the teaching is not true, but because of this petty arguing that takes place. I simply practice and as a result my life has been improving and the lives of those surrounding me also benifit from this. I feel that the theravaden path is genuine and also the mahayana path is genuine, but what makes them genuine are those individuals who are doing the work.
:good:

Yeah, I didn't mean to bash.
I just meant that in my personal experience, from the monks I've met, the Mahayana ones have made the biggest impression on me.
I like what Bhikkhu Samahita, Ajahn Brahm, Ajahn Sumedho, and Bhikkhu Bodhi generally have to say.
I also like what Sheng Yen, Heng Sure, Robert Thurman, Rev Kusula, and the Dalai Lama generally have to say.
I tend to prefer the Mahayana outlook, but I also tend to trace back my day-to-day practices to elements in the Pali Suttas, and I really don't see the conflicts.

It just irks me that 3 of those guys in those videos I posted are on a complete smear campaign against other Buddhists and nobody's really taking them to task.
I guess with only a few hundred views, it's not really worth it.
Had a Mahayana fundamentalist blow up my youtube mail box recently, telling me that I didn't understand "Right Speech" because I didn't think aggressively proselytizing to non-Buddhists who didn't ask to be taught necessarily fit under "Right Speech".
Realizing that arguing on the internet is probably never worth it...
:shrug:
JKhedrup
Posts: 2328
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am

Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Post by JKhedrup »

Not sure if this is what JKhedrup's referring to, but lately there's a lot of speculation coming out of Theravadan camps that Mahayana is just made up stuff, a totally different religion.
Yes my post was not so clear. From time to time in winter I get pretty severe headaches and cannot read, sleep or do much of anything. I decided to try and make some posts on dharma wheel but of course with a serious headache they came out a little bit convoluted/unclear in some instances. For that I apologize!

I was mainly referring to what texts most inspired the practitioners here to take up the practice of Mahayana, and how those texts convinced them it was a genuine teaching. In the Tibetan scholastic tradition texts that touch on this point are known as teg chen bka' sgrubs "Proving Mahayana as the (Buddha's) Word." But I was not referring only to that type of literature, but also to Mahayana Sutras and Shastras that simply inspired faith in the practice of the Bodhisattva vehicle.

I am not trying to convince anyone, I was more interested in people's journeys. I decided a long time ago that people will follow the path of pratice with which they have an affinity.
Son of Buddha
Posts: 1123
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Post by Son of Buddha »

JKhedrup wrote:For myself, at the top of the heap is definitely the Bodhisattvacaryavatara by the Son of the Conquerors Shantideva.

The Avatamsaka is also my lists of favourites.
Mahaparinirvana Sutra,lions roar of queen srimala sutra,the Pureland Sutras,Lotus Sutra,Brahma Net Sutra.

These are all beautiful in their own ways.
Yudron
Posts: 1087
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:55 pm

Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Post by Yudron »

Sorry to hear about your headaches Khedrup. That sounds really miserable.
Post Reply

Return to “Mahāyāna Buddhism”