My teacher said this about our technique, what do you think?

Discuss your personal experience with the Dharma here. How has it enriched your life? What challenges does it present?

Re: My teacher said this about our technique, what do you th

Postby lowlydog » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:35 pm

conebeckham wrote:Lowlydog-

Congratulations on turning your life around, and on the process you find yourself in. Seriously. It's a hard road to walk, but a worthwhile one.

The techniques you're talking about are valuable, no doubt. And I am positive there is great value in Goenka's method, and also in Eckhart Tolle's work. No one is dismissing them.


This road of dharma is a rocky road, self examination is difficult we often do not like what we see, the self can be very ugly. The tradition that suits me is free from these rituals, we do have chanting and people do say sadhu sadhu sadhu and people bow and people wear white clothing and we are also asked not to touch the dhamma seat or point are feet at the teacher. But if you ask a teacher about the reasons behind why we are not to do or do these things there is a common sense answer, no mystery, no secrets. I do not want to derail this thread but I am not allowed to discuss the work of Eckhart tolle anymore as it is judged not dharma teachings. I am to understand that he is teaching a different path and by discussing his work I am breaking the TOS by promoting another path as superior, I find this absurd and see no difference between what Eckhart teaches and what Goenka teaches.

conebeckham wrote: BUT-

There's a subtle (and sometimes, not so subtle) hint of superiority in the message you're trying to convey. Whether you admit it or not, you have put down "rites and rituals," passed judgement on "Religious Buddhists," and you made a statement in this thread that your teacher felt such behaviors "planted the seed for later"--which, by definition, means such actions and attitudes as those displayed by "religious devotees" are somehow immature when compared to your own view. You should own this, first of all, and admit that you've passed judgement. To me, it seems you're not quite there, yet.


If the confidence in which I speak is to be determined as superiority then I have no control over that, this is how I type, but understand that I do not feel superior to any other living being in this universe. Again I am not putting down "rites and rituals" unless they are being done blindly, they do have purpose for some, and they also can be a barrier for others, they can act like a fence seperating people, any action that leads to segregation is in my opinion contrary to Gotamas teachings or and true dharma teachings, it ultimatly will lead to duality. As for the "planting the seed for later" comment, I was referring to those who would attend a retreat, but not be ready to do the work necessary to finish a retreat, goenka says that these individuals have come to recieve the seed of dharma to be developed in another lifetime(not a failure or a waste of time). I was equating this with the people I notice at my temple, those individuals who do not seem ready to meditate but love the environment and socialization of the temple. Some just love the suttras and study them. Wonderful lovely people who are each on their own path, but I stick to my point that this is not enough for liberation, one must observe the nature of reality at the deepest level within the framework of ones body for liberation to occur.

conebeckham wrote:The Mind is primary. The mind is involved, whether we are sitting quietly in meditation, doing a "body scan," focusing on breath, or whatnot.....the mind is also involved when one is chanting devotionally, and when one is prostrating, and when one is making offerings. It's impossible to say what goes on in the minds of those involved in "religious activities"--no one can see another's mind, except Buddha--but there are teachings relating to all these "religious activities" which can turn such activities into powerful meditations, themselves. You should consider this, when you are evaluating the behavior of those around you.


Yes, I could not agree more with you. Again I'm not saying the mahayana path filled with it wonderful teachings is invalid, chanting and prosterations can be useful if they are not done in a manner of blind faith, if one understands their purpose then they become tools to aid in ones developement if they are clung to by people they can act like wedges seperating and dividing the teachings. This blind practice is what I would call religious behaviour, and I feel it is dangerous if it is done by a christian, a muslim, a jew, or a buddhist etc..... this is the behavior that sickened me. I have met christians who hold their cross not to blindly protect them but to remember the qualities of Jesus and to remind them to be mindful of their own actions when faced with difficult situations. I have met buddhists that pray to the statue of buddha to solve their problems, this is ineffective in my opinion, but take refuge in the qualites that Gotama represents, bow to these qualities, this in my opinion has merit. I am not here to judge individuals different practices how could I? It is not possible for me to understand the complexities of all the different indiviuals here from a few typed words. I am speaking in a generalised way not specific to anyone here. What I am advocating is for a place to share my interpretation of the dharma, this may or may not be a place for this but this determination will be decided eventually and everyone will be just fine whatever the result. No anger, no hard feelings. I have a different take on what is breaking the terms of service than the moderaters, this needs to be discussed openly.
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Re: My teacher said this about our technique, what do you th

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:47 pm

And while we are on the topic of this:
It means not to turn another into a guru or god, to find liberation within oneself.
What's with the tape recorded teachings by the Goenka that are played at the retreats? If it's all about finding liberation within oneself then surely his more experienced students have also found this liberation and are capable of expressing it. Instead you have tape recordings of the great (non-) guru. The only other cult of personality I know of which does this is the Osho/Rajneesh mob.

In Vajrayana the guru is the lving expression of the lineage of transmission, neither a god nor a recording.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: My teacher said this about our technique, what do you th

Postby lowlydog » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:48 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:But let's not fool ourselves here, if the Global Vipassana Pagoda is not a religious structure then what is?
Global Vipassana Pagoda.jpg

Global Vipassana Pagoda

It's a meditation campus. A place for people to meditate and learn the technique.


greg wrote:As for non-sectarianism, I know that people that follow Goenka courses are not allowed to practice techniques from their "official" religions during the retreats. They are not allowed to pray, say mantra, mediate, etc... Not even during the free period of the day. They are only allowed to practice Vipassana during the courses. Smells like sectarianism to me. If they were truly non-sectarian, then there would be no problem with people practicing their professed religion during the course of the retreat.


The tradition asks that you suspend any of your religious practices for the duration of the course, the logic is they do not want people mixing different techniques. They wish you to get the full experience of this technique in its purity. When the course is over once again you are you own master and are free to do as you please. It is not sectarian it is purely scientific.
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Re: My teacher said this about our technique, what do you th

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:53 pm

lowlydog wrote:The tradition asks that you suspend any of your religious practices for the duration of the course, the logic is they do not want people mixing different techniques. They wish you to get the full experience of this technique in its purity. When the course is over once again you are you own master and are free to do as you please. It is not sectarian it is purely scientific.
Were you not expounding the beauty of all Dharma being one just a few posts ago and yet now you are talking about mixing (the defiled) and purity? You are your own master except when on retreat when somebody else is the master? All techniques are one except for this technique which is "The One"? :shrug:

Goenka has the monopoly on pure Buddhism yet his techniques are the same as Tolles? A shared monopoly? A "bipoly" Tolle teaches true Buddhism?

Make up your mind.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: My teacher said this about our technique, what do you th

Postby lowlydog » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:57 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:And while we are on the topic of this:
It means not to turn another into a guru or god, to find liberation within oneself.
What's with the tape recorded teachings by the Goenka that are played at the retreats? If it's all about finding liberation within oneself then surely his more experienced students have also found this liberation and are capable of expressing it. Instead you have tape recordings of the great (non-) guru. The only other cult of personality I know of which does this is the Osho/Rajneesh mob.

In Vajrayana the guru is the lving expression of the lineage of transmission, neither a god nor a recording.
:namaste:


The technique is purely scientific, AT's can only assist and answer questions, Acharia teachers are full blown teachers and I believe can give dhamma talks and instruction. Goenka wishes to maintain the purity of the technique this is why the tapes are used so each course is virtually identical. No confusion. We are not to make a Guru out of Goenka, this is repeated often. We are are own masters.
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Re: My teacher said this about our technique, what do you th

Postby lowlydog » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:06 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
lowlydog wrote:The tradition asks that you suspend any of your religious practices for the duration of the course, the logic is they do not want people mixing different techniques. They wish you to get the full experience of this technique in its purity. When the course is over once again you are you own master and are free to do as you please. It is not sectarian it is purely scientific.
Were you not expounding the beauty of all Dharma being one just a few posts ago and yet now you are talking about mixing (the defiled) and purity? You are your own master except when on retreat when somebody else is the master? All techniques are one except for this technique which is "The One"? :shrug:

Goenka has the monopoly on pure Buddhism yet his techniques are the same as Tolles? A shared monopoly? A "bipoly" Tolle teaches true Buddhism?

Make up your mind.


Not the defiled and the pure, just two different techniques, they do not want people mixing techniques, this can lead to confusion. They want you to experience a particular technique in its purity. For the ten day period they ask you to submit to this teaching and drop anything else you are practicing, when the course is finished you are free to do as you please.
It is my personal opinion that what tolle is teaching is in line with Goenka vipassana, not all will agree. Tolle teaches one to feel the inner body, goenka teaches one to feel the inner body. It is through observation of this sub-conscious level of mind body interaction that insights become apparent.
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Re: My teacher said this about our technique, what do you th

Postby lowlydog » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:17 pm

conebeckham wrote:Do you think Christians feel that "Dhamma-the way to liberation"-is universal? I am quite certain that at least some Christians would find Goenka's techniques and methods sectarian. Maybe you could explain to them why they are not sectarian...but do you see what sort of situation you'd fall into by having to do that? I'd bet, in fact, that your "Christian relatives" think of Goenka's group as some sort of dangerous cult, eh?


Their interpretation is irrelevent to me, I care about freedom of expression. If they were to tell me I was not welcome to discuss my beliefs but it was ok for them to express theirs I would not remain in their company.

conebeckham wrote:And If we're going to discuss Goenka, after all, you should be aware that there are quite a few critiques out there of his organization, his method, and his claims of "lineage" as well. In the end, in my view, claims of being "universal" and "non-sectarian" raise red flags, frankly. Why must such claims be made? Is it skillful means, or skillful marketing?


Again I don't care what others think of Goenka vipassana It works for me, and you are free to critique it, and ask questions, and debate it, and express what you do not like about it. You can call it a cult, you can say it is not dharma. All I ask is that a voice will be allowed to debate for its authentisity. This will ensure an open forum environment, let teachings stand on their own merit.
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Re: My teacher said this about our technique, what do you th

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:23 pm

If you cannot see the inconsistencies, hypocrisy and contradictions in what you are saying (given they have been pointed out to you , repeatedly, by a number of people) then I am wasting my time here trying to communicate with you. You are obviously as set in your view, as I am in mine, so any dialogue is (unfortunately) doomed to failure. You continue down your merry path, I will continue down mine and we'll see where we end up.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: My teacher said this about our technique, what do you th

Postby lowlydog » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:43 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:If you cannot see the inconsistencies, hypocrisy and contradictions in what you are saying (given they have been pointed out to you , repeatedly, by a number of people) then I am wasting my time here trying to communicate with you. You are obviously as set in your view, as I am in mine, so any dialogue is (unfortunately) doomed to failure. You continue down your merry path, I will continue down mine and we'll see where we end up.
:namaste:


Greg as I stated earlier I do not go into conversations where there are obviously people discussing their own brand of dharma technique and vomit Goenka and Tolle all over them. I respect these different paths and see them as similar in my own unique way, to difficult for me to explain.

Ask a question and I will do my best to answer it, that I promise you. At present this is my view of dharma but this changes subtly moment to moment as I walk the path. I do not see are dialogue as failure it is simply dialogue, this is all I am asking for. It is not my job to conform you to my view nor is it your job to conform me to your views. This is just a place to discuss dharma.
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Re: My teacher said this about our technique, what do you th

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:14 pm

Dude, you can be as stubbornly intransigent and blinkered as you like, as long as you are abiding by the Terms of Service (and these are not open to discussion). Nobody around here gets banned or suspended as a consequence of their personality (or else I would have been banned ages ago ;) ).
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: My teacher said this about our technique, what do you th

Postby CrawfordHollow » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:27 pm

Lowlydog:

I am sorry, I think that you are going to find it hard to engage folks here in discussion as long as you hold on to your aggressive and demeaning attitude. You are the one telling people that their practice is flawed and is not "real Dharma" or "what the Buddha had in mind." We have been open and civil. I would suggest going back and taking a long hard look at the things that you wrote and the repsonses from Greg and Conne. I for one have no interest in any further dialouge with you.
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Re: My teacher said this about our technique, what do you th

Postby lowlydog » Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:27 pm

CrawfordHollow wrote:Lowlydog:

I am sorry, I think that you are going to find it hard to engage folks here in discussion as long as you hold on to your aggressive and demeaning attitude. You are the one telling people that their practice is flawed and is not "real Dharma" or "what the Buddha had in mind." We have been open and civil. I would suggest going back and taking a long hard look at the things that you wrote and the repsonses from Greg and Conne. I for one have no interest in any further dialouge with you.


I won't disagree in the fact that it has been hard to have a conversation about certain things, if you interpret my attitude as aggressive and demeaning then you have misunderstood my intentions, I would say disenchanted is a word to describe my outlook. I am capable of having a discussion about these rites and rituals and their benifits without emotion, if someone values these things thats great I don't really have much use for them. When you say "we have been open and civil" who is "we" and why am I seperate from the "we"?

Goenka states that he is not teaching any secular religion, and I have no doubt that this is the truth. Now there are some that want Goenka to fit neatly into theravaden, even though Goenka clearly states that he is not teaching sectarian religion. I disagree with this outlook as well. I started practicing in a theravaden temple and as I stated earlier this did not agree with me because of the rites and ritual aspects(seemed to religious for me), the goenka outlook agreed with me, because of its non-religious affiliation, it is not theravaden, probably closer to theravaden but not.

The Goenka practice has led me to certain insights, these insights have led me to see similarities in the mahayana path, and the theravaden path. It's non religious, it's purely scientific. This is where I find myself, I'm not theravaden, I'm not mahayana, I'm not new agey(whatever that is), I'm not Christian, or connected with any other religious organisation or group. Where does a practicioner of Buddhas teachings who does not fit neatly into one of these DW forums go. I would like to be part of a "we" too, but I cannot force myself to act and think differently just to remain here.
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Re: My teacher said this about our technique, what do you th

Postby CrawfordHollow » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:06 pm

Nobody asked you to. "We" are the people who had to defend our practice and tradition against your ill-informed judgements. Lighten up, man.
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Re: My teacher said this about our technique, what do you th

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:17 pm

edit: Thought better of it, sent as pm.
Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: My teacher said this about our technique, what do you th

Postby CrawfordHollow » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:17 pm

And I'm not really going to shut you off, although it wouldn't be much of a loss for you. Let's just call a truce and maybe you can make the effort to learn a bit about the traditions that you brush off a critisize so easily.
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Re: My teacher said this about our technique, what do you th

Postby lowlydog » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:54 pm

CrawfordHollow wrote:And I'm not really going to shut you off, although it wouldn't be much of a loss for you. Let's just call a truce and maybe you can make the effort to learn a bit about the traditions that you brush off a critisize so easily.


I don't feel I am fighting with anyone here. What would be the purpose of that? I also do not brush off traditional values easily, I do however need a solid reason as to why I should or should not participate in certain practices. Why do you feel these practices are of such importance that critiquing them is some how threatening? It's just another interpretation of the teachings. When discussing politics or religion emotions need to be checked at the door.
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Re: My teacher said this about our technique, what do you th

Postby Jikan » Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:03 am

lowlydog wrote:
CrawfordHollow wrote:And I'm not really going to shut you off, although it wouldn't be much of a loss for you. Let's just call a truce and maybe you can make the effort to learn a bit about the traditions that you brush off a critisize so easily.


I don't feel I am fighting with anyone here. What would be the purpose of that? I also do not brush off traditional values easily, I do however need a solid reason as to why I should or should not participate in certain practices. Why do you feel these practices are of such importance that critiquing them is some how threatening? It's just another interpretation of the teachings. When discussing politics or religion emotions need to be checked at the door.


That would require you to, first, actually learn about such practices and their rationales. You have shown an unwillingness to do this so far.

I should also ask: has anyone invited you to participate in these practices? If not, then how is this even a problem for you?
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Re: My teacher said this about our technique, what do you th

Postby Jikan » Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:07 am

conebeckham wrote: claims of being "universal" and "non-sectarian" raise red flags, frankly. Why must such claims be made? Is it skillful means, or skillful marketing?


I'm reminded of this:

http://www.indiegogo.com/kenwilberbio

(note that they've raised almost $15K in excess of their goal)

:shrug:
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Re: My teacher said this about our technique, what do you th

Postby CrawfordHollow » Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:11 am

I am not threatened in the least by your "critique" because your judgements are so saturated in ignorance that they are absurd. I also am not getting emotional. You are the one who seems to feel that there is some sort of conspiracy against you. I would suggest again that you go back and read what Cone and Greg wrore, you will find much wisdom and truth there. Again, where did anyone ask you to change your practice and get involved in anything? I am sorry, I honestly don't have the time or the energy to continue going around in circles with you. I will leave you with the words of Atisha. Maybe you have heard of him.

"Method divorced from wisdom or wisdom without method is bondage: this has been taught. Thus, their union, should not be neglected."
Last edited by CrawfordHollow on Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My teacher said this about our technique, what do you th

Postby lowlydog » Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:26 am

Jikan wrote:That would require you to, first, actually learn about such practices and their rationales. You have shown an unwillingness to do this so far.

I should also ask: has anyone invited you to participate in these practices? If not, then how is this even a problem for you?


I'm not here to start practicing a different technique, I'm here for another purpose and I'm sorry if it is causing sore feelings it is not my intention. My current beliefs are as they are. They are open and I do listen and take what is said to heart.
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