What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Mahayana

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What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Mahayana

Postby JKhedrup » Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:53 pm

For myself, at the top of the heap is definitely the Bodhisattvacaryavatara by the Son of the Conquerors Shantideva.

The Avatamsaka is also my lists of favourites.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:23 pm

Lankavatara Sutra and/or the Heart Sutra.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:27 pm

Diamond and Heart Sutra.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Postby lowlydog » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:47 pm

Who do you need to convince?
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Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Postby Jnana » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:27 pm

JKhedrup wrote:For myself, at the top of the heap is definitely the Bodhisattvacaryavatara by the Son of the Conquerors Shantideva.

If you're referring to Mahāyāna apologetics then Śāntideva's Bodhicaryāvatāra is a good source. However, Bhāviveka's Madhyamakahṛdayakārika & Tarkajvālā (Chapter 4) is one of the most comprehensive treatments of the issue. (A good English translation can be found in Bhāviveka and His Buddhist Opponents by Malcolm David Eckel.)

:buddha1:
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Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Postby lowlydog » Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:05 am

lowlydog wrote:Who do you need to convince?


Let me add to this as it has been pointed out to me that this cab be read as offensive.

Who are you building a case against, or for? Why do you feel mahayana needs convincing? What area in particular are you concerned about? I wouldn't think it needs any convincing, plenty of enlightened beings produced from this tradition.
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Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Postby Jikan » Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:21 am

lowlydog wrote:
lowlydog wrote:Who do you need to convince?


Let me add to this as it has been pointed out to me that this cab be read as offensive.


I'm not sure what you mean here; it sounds like you're criticizing yourself, which is probably not what you mean. What do you mean by "cab" here? Please help us understand you.

Who are you building a case against, or for? Why do you feel mahayana needs convincing? What area in particular are you concerned about? I wouldn't think it needs any convincing, plenty of enlightened beings produced from this tradition.


I don't expect anyone is trying to convince Mahayana of anything, because Mahayana is not a person, and to the best of my knowledge, only people can be convinced. Or perhaps you were trying to make a different point?
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Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Postby Jikan » Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:23 am

I like The Awakening of Faith.

I don't think the texts are the most appealing aspects of Mahayana practice, though. This is a great philosophical and literary treasury, to be sure, but I'm more interested in the people I've met and the practices I've been exposed to. Being around people who "get it" is more convincing than any syllogism or parable.

Namo Buddhaya.
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Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Postby lowlydog » Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:53 am

Jikan wrote:
lowlydog wrote:
lowlydog wrote:Who do you need to convince?


Let me add to this as it has been pointed out to me that this cab be read as offensive.


I'm not sure what you mean here; it sounds like you're criticizing yourself, which is probably not what you mean. What do you mean by "cab" here? Please help us understand you.

Who are you building a case against, or for? Why do you feel mahayana needs convincing? What area in particular are you concerned about? I wouldn't think it needs any convincing, plenty of enlightened beings produced from this tradition.


I don't expect anyone is trying to convince Mahayana of anything, because Mahayana is not a person, and to the best of my knowledge, only people can be convinced. Or perhaps you were trying to make a different point?


cab was a typo can was the correct word.
It was explained to me in a PM what the question was really about. It is relating to validation of the differences between arahant and buddhas in the mahayana path. And he is looking for suttras that validate this difference in the teaching. Correct?
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Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Postby PorkChop » Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:13 am

lowlydog wrote:
lowlydog wrote:Who do you need to convince?


Let me add to this as it has been pointed out to me that this cab be read as offensive.

Who are you building a case against, or for? Why do you feel mahayana needs convincing? What area in particular are you concerned about? I wouldn't think it needs any convincing, plenty of enlightened beings produced from this tradition.


lowlydog,
Not sure if this is what JKhedrup's referring to, but lately there's a lot of speculation coming out of Theravadan camps that Mahayana is just made up stuff, a totally different religion.
One of the videos below goes so far as to call it the "work of Mara".
When it comes to realized beings, these Theravadan fundamentalists would probably say there weren't any.
When noobs (like myself) come across this stuff, it creates a sort of crisis of wanting to understand how it all fits together.
Like I said, not sure JKhedrup's case, but he may be trying to convince someone not to buy into the fundamentalism.

Each one of the videos below links to multiple videos bashing Mahayana in favor of a Theravadan orthodoxy.
Dhammavuddho and Brian Ruhe seem to have a particular penchant for hating on Mahayana, they've both devoted many many vids to the topic.
http://youtu.be/VkhcIyrq8Hs
http://youtu.be/SyTglpuCwQs
http://youtu.be/GDI6VYAMzIA
http://youtu.be/UXdyuE6CfmQ (i think this cat is brian ruhe's teacher)
http://youtu.be/wj8ROh7dyHE (mara made mahayana)

EDIT:
As far as sutras/suttas to validate Arahant vs Buddha, one need only look at any sutta in the Pali literature where the Buddha rebukes one of his Arahant disciples for teaching incorrectly. He gets on Shariputra at least once for not teaching to someone's capacities. I think that may be one of the reasons Shariputra gets singled out in so many Mahayana sutras.
Last edited by PorkChop on Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Postby deepbluehum » Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:18 am

JKhedrup wrote:For myself, at the top of the heap is definitely the Bodhisattvacaryavatara by the Son of the Conquerors Shantideva.

The Avatamsaka is also my lists of favourites.


Lankavatara. MMK
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Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Postby Jnana » Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:29 am

PorkChop wrote:Not sure if this is what JKhedrup's referring to, but lately there's a lot of speculation coming out of Theravadan camps that Mahayana is just made up stuff, a totally different religion.

There's nothing new about about adherents of various Śrāvakayāna traditions criticizing the Mahāyāna. It goes back well over 1500 years, which is why there have been responses from mahāyānika authors in texts such as the Mahāyānasūtrālamkāra, the Tarkajvālā , and the Bodhicaryāvatāra.
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Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Postby PorkChop » Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:40 am

Jnana wrote:
PorkChop wrote:Not sure if this is what JKhedrup's referring to, but lately there's a lot of speculation coming out of Theravadan camps that Mahayana is just made up stuff, a totally different religion.

There's nothing new about about adherents of various Śrāvakayāna traditions criticizing the Mahāyāna. It goes back well over 1500 years, which is why there have been responses from mahāyānika authors in texts such as the Mahāyānasūtrālamkāra, the Tarkajvālā , and the Bodhicaryāvatāra.


Thanks for the heads up on the books!
I'll make sure to check them out.
My main way to deal with those vids was to read enough of the Pali Suttas to see where they were/are wrong...
I find it funny that the first candidate for most of the fundamentalists to pick on is Pure Land, because it parallels almost verbatim with the form of practice the Buddha told his householder disciple Mahanama in the Pali Suttas.
At this point though, I just look at the end result.
I'd rather be like the Mahayana & Vajrayana monks I've met than the Sravakayana ones.
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Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:45 am

Porkchop wrote:I'd rather be like the Mahayana & Vajrayana monks I've met than the Sravakayana ones.


:good:

Seconded, really the best endorsement for any practice I think, open hearted people are inspirations regardless of one's initial biases.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Postby lowlydog » Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:39 am

PorkChop wrote:
lowlydog wrote:
lowlydog wrote:Who do you need to convince?


Let me add to this as it has been pointed out to me that this cab be read as offensive.

Who are you building a case against, or for? Why do you feel mahayana needs convincing? What area in particular are you concerned about? I wouldn't think it needs any convincing, plenty of enlightened beings produced from this tradition.


lowlydog,
Not sure if this is what JKhedrup's referring to, but lately there's a lot of speculation coming out of Theravadan camps that Mahayana is just made up stuff, a totally different religion.
One of the videos below goes so far as to call it the "work of Mara".
When it comes to realized beings, these Theravadan fundamentalists would probably say there weren't any.
When noobs (like myself) come across this stuff, it creates a sort of crisis of wanting to understand how it all fits together.
Like I said, not sure JKhedrup's case, but he may be trying to convince someone not to buy into the fundamentalism.



This is why I do not care to be associated with theravaden or mahayana or any religious group, not because the teaching is not true, but because of this petty arguing that takes place. I simply practice and as a result my life has been improving and the lives of those surrounding me also benifit from this. I feel that the theravaden path is genuine and also the mahayana path is genuine, but what makes them genuine are those individuals who are doing the work.

I attend a theravaden discussion group a couple times a month and recently I mentioned that I joined an online mahayana group and one of the members groaned with distain and made a rude comment, so I know what you are talking about. I have the same difficulties there expressing my take on the dharma as I am met with here. Some refuse to accept the goenka method as valid.

I will say though that the monks at the temple are very helpful and open minded, and they moderate the discussions very well and would not tolerate the bashing of another tradition.
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Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Postby Yudron » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:32 am

It is the heart aspect of the Mahayana that turns me on, not philosophical books in translation. So:

Start Where You Are

Pema Chodron
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Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Postby PorkChop » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:45 am

lowlydog wrote:This is why I do not care to be associated with theravaden or mahayana or any religious group, not because the teaching is not true, but because of this petty arguing that takes place. I simply practice and as a result my life has been improving and the lives of those surrounding me also benifit from this. I feel that the theravaden path is genuine and also the mahayana path is genuine, but what makes them genuine are those individuals who are doing the work.

:good:

Yeah, I didn't mean to bash.
I just meant that in my personal experience, from the monks I've met, the Mahayana ones have made the biggest impression on me.
I like what Bhikkhu Samahita, Ajahn Brahm, Ajahn Sumedho, and Bhikkhu Bodhi generally have to say.
I also like what Sheng Yen, Heng Sure, Robert Thurman, Rev Kusula, and the Dalai Lama generally have to say.
I tend to prefer the Mahayana outlook, but I also tend to trace back my day-to-day practices to elements in the Pali Suttas, and I really don't see the conflicts.

It just irks me that 3 of those guys in those videos I posted are on a complete smear campaign against other Buddhists and nobody's really taking them to task.
I guess with only a few hundred views, it's not really worth it.
Had a Mahayana fundamentalist blow up my youtube mail box recently, telling me that I didn't understand "Right Speech" because I didn't think aggressively proselytizing to non-Buddhists who didn't ask to be taught necessarily fit under "Right Speech".
Realizing that arguing on the internet is probably never worth it...
:shrug:
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Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Postby JKhedrup » Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:45 am

Not sure if this is what JKhedrup's referring to, but lately there's a lot of speculation coming out of Theravadan camps that Mahayana is just made up stuff, a totally different religion.


Yes my post was not so clear. From time to time in winter I get pretty severe headaches and cannot read, sleep or do much of anything. I decided to try and make some posts on dharma wheel but of course with a serious headache they came out a little bit convoluted/unclear in some instances. For that I apologize!

I was mainly referring to what texts most inspired the practitioners here to take up the practice of Mahayana, and how those texts convinced them it was a genuine teaching. In the Tibetan scholastic tradition texts that touch on this point are known as teg chen bka' sgrubs "Proving Mahayana as the (Buddha's) Word." But I was not referring only to that type of literature, but also to Mahayana Sutras and Shastras that simply inspired faith in the practice of the Bodhisattva vehicle.

I am not trying to convince anyone, I was more interested in people's journeys. I decided a long time ago that people will follow the path of pratice with which they have an affinity.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:08 am

JKhedrup wrote:For myself, at the top of the heap is definitely the Bodhisattvacaryavatara by the Son of the Conquerors Shantideva.

The Avatamsaka is also my lists of favourites.


Mahaparinirvana Sutra,lions roar of queen srimala sutra,the Pureland Sutras,Lotus Sutra,Brahma Net Sutra.

These are all beautiful in their own ways.
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Re: What text(s) do you feel make a convincing case for Maha

Postby Yudron » Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:41 pm

Sorry to hear about your headaches Khedrup. That sounds really miserable.
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