Secrecy in Vajrayana

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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby deepbluehum » Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:27 pm

Hi Yudron,

What is the advantage of having all these lineages of dzogchen? Nyingma has so so so many. Nyingma teachers will often have Longchen Nyingthig and Dudjom Tersar. Then all the Kama and Rinchen Ter dzo. Is this what to look for in a teacher? And as a nyingma student also to receive all that? I remember the Rinchen Ter Dzo was $3000 in Alameda. That's really steep. It's a bit intimidating. What to do?
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby conebeckham » Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:53 pm

I'm not Yudron, but....

What is the advantage of having all these different lineages of Kagyu teachings? There are so many. And these different methods--Drikung's Gongchik and the "FiveFold Mahamudra," Kamtsang's Ngedon Gyamtso, Drukpa's "Six Spheres" tradition, and the Shangpa's "Amulet Box...."

With regard to all the Nyingma traditions, well, Guru Rinpoche seems to have thought widespread and myriad terma manifestations was a good idea. As for "who to look for" as a teacher, I'm not sure the answers are any different for a Nyingma Lama, than they would be for a Lama from any other tradition.

No one can possibly practice all the teachings in the Rinchen Terdzo. Not even Kongtrul, who received and compiled them all, not even Khyentse Wangpo, who spurred him on and in fact gave him many of the empowerments in the collection.

Nyingmapas, in particular, have a special regard for the "Path of Empowerment"--given the View of Dzogchen, and the customary Empowerments (esp. the Rigpa'i Tselwang) often included in Dzogchen systems, --and therefore the chance to obtain an entire cycle--or cycles, in the case of Rinchen Terdzo, -- is seen as potentially equivalent to a period of practice. This is a bit different than the Sarma view of empowerments, in general terms, though of course Sarma lineages admit to the possibility of instant realization upon conferral of empowerment.

If one thinks about all the empowerments, and the sheer amount of time and energy, invested in the bestowal of the Rinchen Terdzo, $3000 doesn't seem like much to me. But everyone has their view, and their priorities.
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby Yudron » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:22 am

JKhedrup wrote:
never asks anyone how they are doing. He knows everything. Just do as he says and you know it's as good as if you heard it from Vajradhara.


Ummmm... Okay....That seemed a somewhat random "promote my teacher"plug.

At the same time, you are making me want to drop by San Francisco though.



No, it's not random. A poster above him asked about lamas in the Bay Area.
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby Yudron » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:39 am

deepbluehum wrote:Hi Yudron,

What is the advantage of having all these lineages of dzogchen? Nyingma has so so so many. Nyingma teachers will often have Longchen Nyingthig and Dudjom Tersar. Then all the Kama and Rinchen Ter dzo. Is this what to look for in a teacher? And as a nyingma student also to receive all that? I remember the Rinchen Ter Dzo was $3000 in Alameda. That's really steep. It's a bit intimidating. What to do?



You don't need to do anything, everything is complete in the sublime Drikung lineage.

It is not necessary for those of us, like myself, who are not lamas, to receive the Rinchen Terdzod or the Nyingma Kama wangs. For Nyingma lineage holders it is very important, because they may then be called upon to give the empowerment or reading transmission in the future. People like me just want to go to receive potent blessings from Yangthang Tulku Rinpoche, because my practice needs all the help it can get. In addition, he may (or may not) say a few words that will illuminate this beautiful thing we call the Nyingma.

I practice and study both the Longchen Nyingthig and the Dudjom Tersar, because I wanted to make a close connection with a great Longchen Nyingthig lama after I already had one perfect root lama in the Tersar Lineage... so I undertook training in that as well. I haven't been able to detect any difference whatsoever between them. It definitely opened the door to studying the great literature of Jigme Lingpa, which I hope to continue. Wow! I wouldn't recommend undertaking more than one path of training to other householders, it's just that it wasn't optional for me because of undeniable connections.

I think you know what to look for in a teacher.
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:54 am

Thanks guys.
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:09 am

Drubpon Rinpoche has simplified things for us.

2 Empowerments. Chakrasamvara and Vajrayogini.
3 books. Jewel Orament, Gongchig, Hundred Thousand Songs
1 Pith introduction. Ganga Mahamudra.
2 Paths. Co-emergent Mahamudra. Five-fold path/ Six Yogas of Naropa
1 group practice Lama Chodpa.
1 Protector. Achi.

And then there are the secrets of Lord Jigten Sumgon. These might be the only real secrets left in Vajrayana. I don't know.
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby conebeckham » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:40 am

Hey DeepBlue-

I have confidence in your teacher, and his lineage. I've met him, you know, and I think I may have met you, as well, briefly? Last summer, after SF Kagyu Monlam?

Anyway, we are blessed here, in the Bay Area, with a huge variety of well-qualified teachers. But no need to rely on more than one!

Please convey my regards to Druppon Rinpoche-thanks!
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:44 am

conebeckham wrote:Hey DeepBlue-

I have confidence in your teacher, and his lineage. I've met him, you know, and I think I may have met you, as well, briefly? Last summer, after SF Kagyu Monlam?

Anyway, we are blessed here, in the Bay Area, with a huge variety of well-qualified teachers. But no need to rely on more than one!

Please convey my regards to Druppon Rinpoche-thanks!


Yes I'm know you know my teacher. But I wasn't at the Kagyu Monlam. I forget why. I will send him your hello! I'm sure we will meet soon. Go Niners!
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby JKhedrup » Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:28 am

Yes the Bay area has an incredible selection of teachers and practice groups! Those of you who live there are very fortunate.

No, it's not random. A poster above him asked about lamas in the Bay Area.


My bad, sorry :emb:
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:05 am

Yudron wrote:
I've known the following lamas for many years ...


OK, thanks a lot! I've been wanting to meet Lama Pema Dorje Rinpoche for a while now, so I'm glad that his new schedule will be posted soon. I've been to see Anam Thubten several times, and I think he is a very, very good teacher. In fact, I think I would like to study more intensively with him, but I'm not exactly sure what opportunities are available.
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If we have to have a soul, it might as well be vidya, it is after all, permanent, unconditioned, a knower, stainless, and free from the three realms. But If we don't have to have one, vidya still has these characteristics. It is our essenceless essence. - a certain Gemini
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Why is the Vajrayana school so secretive?

Postby Red Faced Buddha » Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:04 am

Why are the Vajrayana Buddhist so secretive?
A person once asked me why I would want to stop rebirth. "It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want to be reborn."
I replied. "Wanting to be reborn is like wanting to stay in a jail cell, when you have the chance to go free and experience the whole wide world. Does a convict, on being freed from his shabby, constricting, little cell, suddenly say "I really want to go back to jail and be put in a cell. It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want that?"
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby muni » Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:22 pm

In some way, regarding compassionate wisdom, the secrecy can also be a bit explained by this funny example/metaphor about meditation. I think it all starts from being aware for own mind protection. :smile:

"...But as Shantideva said, it's not something impossible, you can do it. It's like drinking
alcohol. If you have never drunk alcohol in the past, then what do you have to do? If
you want to become a person who drinks alcohol, then what do you have to do? You
have to find the right master, someone who goes to the pub every now and then and
you have to hang around with him or her, then this person will give you the
transmission. In the beginning some of that alcohol might burn your throat. But that
is necessary if you want to be a diligent follower; you have to go through this
tolerance. If your master is very compassionate and skilful he might not give you a
whole bottle of alcohol at once because that will put you off. Then you will never
touch it again. But if he is skilful he will give you maybe one or two sips every day.
Then six months later, maybe you can drink half a glass. About a year later you will
speak every language in the bar....
....... " :smile:

http://multimedia.getresponse.com/725/6 ... s/6834.pdf
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