Dharma Wheel

A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism
It is currently Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:28 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 72 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:59 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Posts: 2808
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
gregkavarnos wrote:
Images? The same. In another thread I posted a picture of Sukkhasiddhi. There are two main ways in which she is depicted in Tibetan iconography: in one she is sitting calmly, making a mudra with her left hand and holding a kapala (gasp!) bowl in her right hand. In the other she is depicted "revealing the secret lotus". Now, I chose the first image. The second image was normally secret and only revealed after an explanation of the symbology was given. To avoid misinterpretation.


That image you're talking about, the second one, is not Sukhasiddhi, though it has been misidentified as such in several places. It's Khacho Karmo, one of the two Dakini practices contained in Shangpa's Five Golden Dharmas.

Sometimes things that are secret get "misidentified" in public sources. A good example, eh?

_________________
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:40 pm
Posts: 452
Beat me to it Cone :smile:

_________________
s.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:46 pm 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Posts: 10290
Location: Greece
conebeckham wrote:
That image you're talking about, the second one, is not Sukhasiddhi, though it has been misidentified as such in several places. It's Khacho Karmo, one of the two Dakini practices contained in Shangpa's Five Golden Dharmas.

Sometimes things that are secret get "misidentified" in public sources. A good example, eh?
Pedant! :tongue:

Actually a perfect example! Thank you for pointing out that detail Cone!
:namaste:

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:18 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Posts: 2808
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
:twothumbsup:

_________________
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm
Posts: 2295
Yudron wrote:
There are lots of great lamas who are not always on the road--not all great lamas are famous or like to travel. There are plenty of opportunities to have a close relationship with a great lama. Come to the Bay Area and I will introduce you to some.


I live in the bay area. Who do you recommend?Yudron

_________________
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am
Posts: 2327
Location: the Netherlands and India
Quote:
FPMT for example has a huge amount of stuff available, but they still give the caveat that one needs empowerment etc.


They give the caveat and in fact these days are even more careful. When I ordered a restricted sadhana from their website I had to provide the details regarding from whom, when and where I received the necessary initiation.

_________________
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:52 pm 
Offline
Global Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Posts: 3037
Location: Olympia WA
JKhedrup wrote:
Quote:
FPMT for example has a huge amount of stuff available, but they still give the caveat that one needs empowerment etc.


They give the caveat and in fact these days are even more careful. When I ordered a restricted sadhana from their website I had to provide the details regarding from whom, when and where I received the necessary initiation.


I see what you're saying, but at least last I checked you could download sadhanas from them that require initiation for with no interaction or accountability to them at all. My only point is that to a new person who has not considered the nuances of a discussion like this it can send a seemingly contradictory message to have all these materials so widely available, but then to insist on the proper channels. If one reads up a bit, and has already decided they are going to make the good faith effort to do things right it is one thing, but often people begin from a place that involves a little doubt and desire to 'test'.

Vajrayana I think would naturally attract those willing to be a bit more..experimental I guess is the word in practice, and I have to wonder if simply the wide availability hasn't led to more than a few experimentations that would be outside the realm of acceptable to most teachers..get what i'm saying? Not trying to make any kind of judgement on things, just an observation as a relatively new person.

_________________
"We're chained to the world and we all gotta pull" -Tom Waits


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am
Posts: 2327
Location: the Netherlands and India
Quote:
but at least last I checked you could download sadhanas from them that require initiation for with no interaction or accountability to them at all


Check again:

Quote:
These practices are restricted to only those with the appropriate tantric empowerment. To receive a PDF you must write the name of the empowerment you have received and from whom in the “comment” section at check out. If you are unsure whether you are qualified email us at education@fpmt.org.


http://shop.fpmt.org/Requiring-Empowerment_c_242.html

_________________
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:03 pm 
Offline
Global Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Posts: 3037
Location: Olympia WA
JKhedrup wrote:
Quote:
but at least last I checked you could download sadhanas from them that require initiation for with no interaction or accountability to them at all


Check again:

Quote:
These practices are restricted to only those with the appropriate tantric empowerment. To receive a PDF you must write the name of the empowerment you have received and from whom in the “comment” section at check out. If you are unsure whether you are qualified email us at education@fpmt.org.


http://shop.fpmt.org/Requiring-Empowerment_c_242.html



This is only true if you just go through their shop, instead of what many might do, which is google stuff.

I don't wish to post the things in question, but I can if you want an example. These are FPMT and affiliated sites too, not third parties that might have redistributed them. They have all kinds of sadhanas accessible for free download that require empowerment, by accident or not.

_________________
"We're chained to the world and we all gotta pull" -Tom Waits


Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am
Posts: 2327
Location: the Netherlands and India
You should definitely bring it to their attention if this is the case!

I think the digression also happens depending on how strict your view of these things is...

In the case of FPMT, only Anuttarayoga/Highest Yoga Tantra sadhanas are restricted, though some lamas might say that every Tantric sadhana should be restricted.

In the case of the Lama Chopa, it is made available because HHDL has stated that it is fine to do the practice as a group, and that an HYT initiation is only required to study the texts.

The thing is these standards vary from lama to lama, even at different FPMT centres people have different views according to what their teachers might say (depending on which lama is resident and what his opinion is.)

_________________
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
Posts: 1302
Location: San Francisco, CA
Think about what "sharing" is. Talking about yourself. Whatever "progress" you made letting go of self is instantly muddled by talking about yourself.

There is no progress to talk about. The idea of progress is dualism, spiritual materialism. This is Mahayana, you have to go way beyond what everyone else is thinking. Go beyond cause and effect, beyond effectiveness and ineffectiveness. Drop every idea. This is the fruit. It's also the foundation. The basis for all giving perfection as stated in Diamond Sutra.

In San Francisco, at 767 10th Ave. Drubpon Rinpoche never asks anyone how they are doing. He knows everything. Just do as he says and you know it's as good as if you heard it from Vajradhara.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:26 pm
Posts: 40
Quote:
The timing of the advice for social media from Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche is interesting, 'cause recently I found myself pondering this whole question about secrecy in Vajrayana, not in respect to social media, but in general....


According to a quote from H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche in his 'History of the Nyingma School of Tibetan Buddism' states:

"In general, the Indian adepts of the secret mantra strictly preserved secrecy until they attained accomplishment, no one knew them to be adepts of the way of secret mantra. And when they vanished in a most miraculous manner, or displayed extraordinary powers, people would exclaim, "Oh, my goodness! he was a mantra adept". So it was that they were only recognised later. This is why all those who practised the way of mantras attained at least some particular accomplishement."

_________________
"If the aspiration for enlightenment is your motivation in coming to see me, there is no remedy except meditative practice. I, too, will only practice." - Zurpoche Sakya Jungne


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am
Posts: 2327
Location: the Netherlands and India
Quote:
never asks anyone how they are doing. He knows everything. Just do as he says and you know it's as good as if you heard it from Vajradhara.


Ummmm... Okay....That seemed a somewhat random "promote my teacher"plug.

At the same time, you are making me want to drop by San Francisco though.

_________________
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:21 pm 
Offline
Global Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Posts: 3037
Location: Olympia WA
I think I get it Venerable, it is important, and there is no perfect answer. Still, the fact that we admit there is no consistency seems to suggest that the original poster is on to something, and that overall a response to this question from authority figures is ultimately going to require more than just business as usual. It seems to come up alot in the Vajrayana world.

_________________
"We're chained to the world and we all gotta pull" -Tom Waits


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am
Posts: 2327
Location: the Netherlands and India
Yes exactly!

When people ask me about this I am sometimes reluctant to answer as I have heard so many different views.

And sometimes it is the most famous and contemporary of lamas, like Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche, who are the most conservative regarding these kinds of topics.

I guess the best bet is for people to follow the lead of their teacher from whom they received tantric empowerment. But then if one has received them from several teachers even that might not be helpful advice. :oops:

_________________
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:55 pm
Posts: 1054
Location: Sunny California
dzogchungpa wrote:
Yudron wrote:
There are lots of great lamas who are not always on the road--not all great lamas are famous or like to travel. There are plenty of opportunities to have a close relationship with a great lama. Come to the Bay Area and I will introduce you to some.


I live in the bay area. Who do you recommend?Yudron


I've known the following lamas for many years and they maintain a close relationship with Lama Tharchin Rinpoche http://www.vajrayana.org, who is a little farther away:
Orgyen Chowang Rinpoche http://www.atiamrita.org
Loppon Jigme Rinpoche http://www.lotusdharmagarden.org/Lotus_Dharma_Garden/Lotus_Dharma_Garden_Home.html
Lama Pema Dorje Rinpoche http://sangchenpemachholing.org/ His new schedule should be posted soon. Rinpoche is very humble, completely not oriented to gaining wealth and fame--or even students--don't miss out on him! He is in his 70's, and was a close disciple of Dudjom Rinpoche.

Also, I have received very good advice and help from the following lamas:
Anam Thubten http://www.dharmata.org
Lama Palden http://www.sukhasiddhi.org

Those lamas, are associated with other lamas in the area, who I don't know as well yet, such as Khenpo Karten, Tulku Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche, Lama Orgyen Zangpo Rinpoche who seem quite wonderful.

These are the one's I know. There are many other lamas I don't know, such as lamas at KDK in SF, The geshe at Tse Chen Ling in SF, Ari and Rose Goldfield, Lama Kunga Rinpoche, and on and on.

_________________
My blog:
http://onsausalcreek.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
Posts: 1302
Location: San Francisco, CA
JKhedrup wrote:
Quote:
never asks anyone how they are doing. He knows everything. Just do as he says and you know it's as good as if you heard it from Vajradhara.


Ummmm... Okay....That seemed a somewhat random "promote my teacher"plug.

At the same time, you are making me want to drop by San Francisco though.


Shameless plug. Garchen Rinpoche told me Drubpon Rinpoche is very precious. I'm sure there are many very amazing teachers. I've been with him five years now. Only recently he's been blowing my mind even more. Actually, he knows my every thought. I can't explain how I know this without it seeming weird, but he's the omniscient one is all I have to say. Drikung Kagyu is absolutely glorious. I'm so lucky to have made this precious friend. So happy!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
Posts: 1302
Location: San Francisco, CA
Yudron wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Yudron wrote:
There are lots of great lamas who are not always on the road--not all great lamas are famous or like to travel. There are plenty of opportunities to have a close relationship with a great lama. Come to the Bay Area and I will introduce you to some.


I live in the bay area. Who do you recommend?Yudron


I've known the following lamas for many years and they maintain a close relationship with Lama Tharchin Rinpoche http://www.vajrayana.org, who is a little farther away:
Orgyen Chowang Rinpoche http://www.atiamrita.org
Loppon Jigme Rinpoche http://www.lotusdharmagarden.org/Lotus_Dharma_Garden/Lotus_Dharma_Garden_Home.html
Lama Pema Dorje Rinpoche http://sangchenpemachholing.org/ His new schedule should be posted soon. Rinpoche is very humble, completely not oriented to gaining wealth and fame--or even students--don't miss out on him! He is in his 70's, and was a close disciple of Dudjom Rinpoche.

Also, I have received very good advice and help from the following lamas:
Anam Thubten http://www.dharmata.org
Lama Palden http://www.sukhasiddhi.org

Those lamas, are associated with other lamas in the area, who I don't know as well yet, such as Khenpo Karten, Tulku Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche, Lama Orgyen Zangpo Rinpoche who seem quite wonderful.

These are the one's I know. There are many other lamas I don't know, such as lamas at KDK in SF, The geshe at Tse Chen Ling in SF, Ari and Rose Goldfield, Lama Kunga Rinpoche, and on and on.


Good one. Wow. Bay Area is a pure land.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:50 pm
Posts: 466
:bow:

_________________
Unless the inner forces of negative emotions are conquered
Strife with outer enemies will never end.
~Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
Posts: 1302
Location: San Francisco, CA
The main reason for secrecy is that if you speak about some realization you lose it. There are many stories. One funny one is one chakrasamvara master attained siddhi of shitting gold. He gave one nugget to Holiness Talkung Matul Rinpoche. Then never again gold did he shit.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 72 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group