Investigating fake lamas

[JKhedrup]

Thanks for posting that Tsultrim.

It starts at 2:10. And 6:35.

He emphasizes the big numbers he attracts but also that what he is trying to do is follow the instructions of his teachers.

[Knotty Veneer]

Regarding Ole's claims of being Mahakala, he says so himself here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNxA0yKeMGM (Whether it is Bernagchen or not is not clear but I would say that it is implied).

I knew this was around somewhere. Although it is still not exactly clear what he is claiming other than some sort of supernatural mandate (no doubt to make up for his lack of formal qualifications).

He emphasizes the big numbers he attracts but also that what he is trying to do is follow the instructions of his teachers.

I don’t think his claim to be simply following the orders of his teachers absolves Nydahl. The situation is far more nuanced than that, Khedrup. The small group of lamas who back Nydahl have a relationship of reciprocal benefit with him and have been known to withdraw remarks if they incurred Ole’s displeasure and hurriedly replace them with eulogies of unstinting praise. They will tell him what he wants to hear.

Indeed, this strikes me as a major blindspot in any discussion of fake lamas/controversial teachers (whether it is Nydahl or Akhon Lhamo or a Ngakpa Chogyam or Chogyam Trungpa or Sogyal or whoever else) that no criticism is broached of the Tibetan lamas who support them. Claims that High Lama such-and-such (of whom no criticism should dare be made) supports said dodgy teacher are often used to deflect criticism from controversial figures and shut down discussion. Often these guys would not be able to continue with the support these receive from India/Nepal/Bhutan/wherever. I think we are naive in this regard.

[Jikan]

"You have to use your brains!"

--Chogyal Namkhai Norbu on more than a few public occasions

[gregkavarnos]

...that no criticism is broached of the Tibetan lamas who support them.

I think that you will find that it will be impossible to find a lama (Tibetan or otherwise) that has no skeletons in their closet, or dirt on them, somewhere out there. We are talking about human beings after all.

And this criticism can be leveled against lama (Tibetan or otherwise) that back legitimate teachers/lama too.

Now, if somebody has the karma to have a perfect teacher, that's great, but 'til we accumulate the merit to be in that situation, then we just have to make do with the best that we can find. This ain't no Pure Land, this is samsara.

[pemachophel]

Greg,

This is a Pure Land and pure perception makes it so.

[gregkavarnos]

Greg,

This is a Pure Land and pure perception makes it so.

So some believe. But when I see 10 page discussins whose sole aim is to try to bring disrepute upon lamas (and other less qualified beings), it tends to blur my vision.

[philji]

Well saidGreg...... Lets just follow the instructions and practice....instead of diggi g the dirt.

[JKhedrup]

But when I see 10 page discussins whose sole aim is to try to bring disrepute upon lamas

It is a good point.

This is a somewhat dark side of human nature. I wonder if it is the same impulse that makes people want to look when an injured person is carted away from the scene of an accident.

If only we could make a thread on the 12 Links of Depending Arising as popular as this one!

[Knotty Veneer]

Well saidGreg...... Lets just follow the instructions and practice....instead of diggi g the dirt.

So let's all accept any one who calls themself a lama at their word. Let's all pretend that their are no fakes or charlatans in this game and anyone who get's abused or taken for a ride had it coming karmically?

This may not be pleasant but I think anyone who sticks their head in the sand and says is none of their business is asking for trouble.

[gregkavarnos]

This may not be pleasant but I think anyone who sticks their head in the sand and says is none of their business is asking for trouble.

Nobody said that we become silent participants in deception, but at the same time, "asking for trouble" for the sake of "asking for trouble" (exactly what this thread basically is) has no merit whatsoever.

If somebody asks you about a teacher (fake or real), well, you do not lie about them, but there is no need to immediately whip out the tar and feathers either.

This thread really displays a "pitchfork and burning torches" mentality of the worst kind. I'm starting to think that maybe it was a bad idea (on my behalf) to set it up.

[Knotty Veneer]

This thread really displays a "pitchfork and burning torches" mentality of the worst kind.

I think you're an exaggerating just a wee bit, Greg.

By the very nature of this type of discussion, that on controversial figures, the debate generates, well, controversy. These charismatic figures give rise to fierce loyalty in their followers and increduluous disbelief in their opponents. The recent thread on Aro gter is a very good example.

Do you think there is a way to discuss these kind of things (except very generally) that would not give rise to the issues you have?

[Harold]

I believe that this thread is more in line with a true Dharmapala practice.

It is in my opinion that it is right action and speech to protect our brothers and sisters in the Dharma.

Evil flourishes when good men or women do NOTHING.

[Konchog1]

I believe that this thread is more in line with a true Dharmapala practice.

It is in my opinion that it is right action and speech to protect our brothers and sisters in the Dharma.

Evil flourishes when good men or women do NOTHING.

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=11409&start=40#p146357

[Karma Dorje]

I believe that this thread is more in line with a true Dharmapala practice.

It is in my opinion that it is right action and speech to protect our brothers and sisters in the Dharma.

Evil flourishes when good men or women do NOTHING.

What it really is is a profound lack of faith in real Dharmapalas. Don't worry, they really do protect the genuine dharma from corruption.

They don't need people playing dharma cop out of an inflated sense of self-importance. We practitioners on the contrary are encouraged to always maintain pure view, and witch hunts are not conducive to pure view.

Let the beings with actual foreknowledges sort the wheat from the chaff.

[gregkavarnos]

...the debate generates, well, controversy.

Controversy vampires! Anything to keep the mind distracted from its true nature, right? I mean, lets generate some good old aversion and hatred, instead of taking the time to develop equanimity. Why waste our time with that?

[Knotty Veneer]

...the debate generates, well, controversy.

Controversy vampires! Anything to keep the mind distracted from its true nature, right? I mean, lets generate some good old aversion and hatred, instead of taking the time to develop equanimity. Why waste our time with that?

OK - so I'll ask my question again in another way - How do we discuss this kind of thing without generating "some good old aversion and hatred", in your opinion?

[gregkavarnos]

By asking the question (ie investigating a lama) when it needs to be asked (ie if you are considering receiving teachings from them) and not asking it just to satisfy some sort of paranoid crusade or for a tittilating conversation topic.

[philji]

By asking the question (ie investigating a lama) when it needs to be asked (ie if you are considering receiving teachings from them) and not asking it just to satisfy some sort of paranoid crusade or for a tittilating conversation topic.

Well said...I dos not see any good whatsoever in trying to dig the dirt on some teacher...just " to help others" as is usually said..... Find a teacher..and work with him/ her....why concern yourself with others...it seems like an obsession for some one here....

[Harold]

By asking the question (ie investigating a lama) when it needs to be asked (ie if you are considering receiving teachings from them) and not asking it just to satisfy some sort of paranoid crusade or for a tittilating conversation topic.

Well said...I dos not see any good whatsoever in trying to dig the dirt on some teacher...just " to help others" as is usually said..... Find a teacher..and work with him/ her....why concern yourself with others...it seems like an obsession for some one here....

On this thread people have commented about the likes of Nydahl, Akhon Lhamo, Sogyal Rinpoche, Trungpa Rinpoche ,Aro gter sadly nothing on Steven Seagal.

But nothing on their thousands of students that are, what could we say DOOMED.

"FIND A TEACHER...AND WORK WITH HIM/HER..WHY CONCERN YOURSELF WITH OTHERS..."

What happens when they find Nydal,Akhon Lhamo, Sogyal Rinpoche, Aro gter as their teacher and they work with him or her?

Doomed to follow bad teachers and teachings which could lead to terrible re=births.

'WHY CONCERN YOURSELF WITH OTHERS...IT SEEMS LIKE AN OBSESSION FOR SOME ONE HERE..".

Lets just forget about them. Lets JUST TALK about compassion.

Lets all keep on TALKING and not doing or engaging in COMPASSION IN ACTION.

Anyone willing to stand with a placard to denounce any of them at one of their meetings to save someone from being a FUTURE VICTIM?

'WHY CONCERN YOURSELF WITH OTHERS...".

[CrawfordHollow]

I am not so sure I would consider Trungpa's students doomed. I get where you are coming from, still... you have an awfully odd hobby.