We can, we cannot, we may, we may not.... arghhh!

Anything goes (almost).

Re: We can, we cannot, we may, we may not.... arghhh!

Postby Jikan » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:15 am

Azidonis wrote:
A lot of the "secrecy" has to do with 2 things:

1. dilution
2. control

Some, "pure lineages" are more concerned with dilution. The "unpure" ones are concerned with control.


These are big claims. Do you have any evidence in support of them? I mean material evidence, specific instances where this happens. You've spoken only in hypotheticals and generalities so far.

The dharma is free. You can learn from the Buddha without any sort of formal sangha, and then you have no vows to remain quiet about anything.


It is true that it is possible to learn Dharma without any sort of formal sangha, and without a teacher. It is exceptionally difficult to do so. Can you name some persons known to history who have accomplished the path on their own?

For most of us mere mortals, all the supports and guidance we can find are necessary. Hence, relying on the guidance and methods of a capable teacher is advised.
Need help getting on retreat? Want to support others in practice? Pay the Dana for Dharma forum a visit...

viewtopic.php?f=114&t=13727
Jikan
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5793
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: We can, we cannot, we may, we may not.... arghhh!

Postby lowlydog » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:03 am

Jikan wrote:Nothing you know of, that is.

Unless you assume that Buddhist practice, as you understand it, is the only acceptable or genuine form of Buddhist practice. Is that your position?



Touchy touchy fella,

Wisdom is not a thing(nothing), but why we must keep it a secret is beyond me?
lowlydog
 
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:50 pm

Re: We can, we cannot, we may, we may not.... arghhh!

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:27 am

lowlydog wrote:Touchy touchy fella,

Wisdom is not a thing(nothing), but why we must keep it a secret is beyond me?
Wisdom is not being kept secret from anybody, delusion posing as wisdom is. It's a matter of shielding people, with the spiritual maturity of a 3 year old, from the posers and keeping the spiritual matches away from the kids.
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 10317
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: We can, we cannot, we may, we may not.... arghhh!

Postby oushi » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:12 am

Jikan wrote:t is true that it is possible to learn Dharma without any sort of formal sangha, and without a teacher. It is exceptionally difficult to do so. Can you name some persons known to history who have accomplished the path on their own?

Huineng, Sixth Patriarch of Chán ? It was quite simple for him, but I admit, it is very very difficult.
Last edited by oushi on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Say what you think about me here.
User avatar
oushi
 
Posts: 1596
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:18 am

Re: We can, we cannot, we may, we may not.... arghhh!

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:57 am

The foolish proclaim their qualifications;

the wise keep them secret within.

A straw floats on the surface of water,

but a precious gem sinks to the depths.

Those with little learning show great pride.

Grown wise, they are quiet.

Torrents always make much noise,

but the ocean seldom roars.

— Sakya Pandita, A Precious Treasury
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 10317
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: We can, we cannot, we may, we may not.... arghhh!

Postby lowlydog » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:54 am

gregkavarnos wrote:Wisdom is not being kept secret from anybody, delusion posing as wisdom is. It's a matter of shielding people, with the spiritual maturity of a 3 year old, from the posers and keeping the spiritual matches away from the kids.
:namaste:


wisdom must be experienced for oneself, it can not be expressed by mere sounds, can a sound or a few typed words define and explain Greg K. If people are ready to experience wisdom it will naturally rise within.
Who decides who does the shielding?
lowlydog
 
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:50 pm

Re: We can, we cannot, we may, we may not.... arghhh!

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:01 pm

...it can not be expressed by mere sounds, can a sound or a few typed words define and explain Greg K...
So teachings are useless? The Sutras, Sutta, Shastras and Tantras play no role?
If people are ready to experience wisdom it will naturally rise within.
So now wisdom is god sent? A matter of fate? Luck?
Who decides who does the shielding?
Spiritual adults.
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 10317
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: We can, we cannot, we may, we may not.... arghhh!

Postby lowlydog » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:23 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
...it can not be expressed by mere sounds, can a sound or a few typed words define and explain Greg K...
So teachings are useless? The Sutras, Sutta, Shastras and Tantras play no role?
:namaste:


They are mere pointers towards the truth, and must be seen in this context, same as a guru. A guru or a scripture cannot liberate, they can only act as pointers towards the truth.
lowlydog
 
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:50 pm

Re: We can, we cannot, we may, we may not.... arghhh!

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:40 pm

I do not think you will find anybody here saying anything to the contrary.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 10317
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: We can, we cannot, we may, we may not.... arghhh!

Postby seeker242 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:50 pm

Jikan wrote:
seeker242 wrote:
I would say that is the case if your teacher gives you things and says they must be kept secret. But if you don't have a teacher or guru and they haven't given you any secret teachings, I can't imagine what else would need to be kept secret.

:namaste:


Yes, that's right. You don't really have a pony in this race.

If you're serious about practice, though, I advise you begin practicing under the direction of a teacher who is capable.


I do thanks! Although I practice in a zen tradition and there aren't any kind of secrets, even with "advanced" students. Unless you consider the sound of 1 hand clapping to be a secret, ha! :lol:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
User avatar
seeker242
 
Posts: 732
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:50 pm
Location: South Florida, USA

Re: We can, we cannot, we may, we may not.... arghhh!

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:57 pm

Really? How do you know this? If it is a secret then your teacher is not going to divulge it now, are they? ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 10317
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: We can, we cannot, we may, we may not.... arghhh!

Postby seeker242 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:07 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Really? How do you know this? If it is a secret then your teacher is not going to divulge it now, are they? ;)


There aren't any secret teaching in zen. :smile: The only thing that could be considered secret, would be koan answers. But even then, answers to koans aren't really something that can be divulged by another person. Like my teacher said "I could tell you all the answers to all the koans, but even that won't help you answer them", ha! :smile:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
User avatar
seeker242
 
Posts: 732
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:50 pm
Location: South Florida, USA

Re: We can, we cannot, we may, we may not.... arghhh!

Postby Azidonis » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:11 pm

Jikan wrote:
Azidonis wrote:
A lot of the "secrecy" has to do with 2 things:

1. dilution
2. control

Some, "pure lineages" are more concerned with dilution. The "unpure" ones are concerned with control.


These are big claims. Do you have any evidence in support of them? I mean material evidence, specific instances where this happens. You've spoken only in hypotheticals and generalities so far.


I suppose you are wanting an extremely long list of those who have worked to help protect the integrity of the dharma, and conversely, those who have only sought to use it for personal ends (ie. money, self-aggrandizement, etc).

Protecting the integrity of the dharma is what I mean by not inviting dilution. For instance, how many people have mistaken the first noble truth for a pessimistic, "woe unto me" worldview, when nothing could be further from the truth? Yet, without the great masters turning the wheel of the dharma, keeping it alive and protecting the message from being so diluted or confused as to lose their real meanings, there is no way to tell just what type of disaster Buddhism would be.

In fact, the Dalai Lama has gone through great efforts to expound on the dharma for monks, nuns, laymen, and laywomen alike. Likewise, non-profit organizations exist to help protect the integrity of the dharma, such as Dharma Seed. Without efforts such as these, there is no way to tell how the teachings would be perceived by the world in the present day, though one could look at some more extreme anti-Buddhist viewpoints for examples. Thankfully, Buddhism has largely avoided such dilution over the centuries due to the maintenance of the integrity of the dharma.

For an example of the second (control), watch this video (it's only 5:42). Granted, it is a "Hindu" video, but such a thing is not exclusive to Hinduism. Buddhism may not have as much corruption, but it most certainly exists. One only has to recall the deeds of the Aum Shinrikyo group, which used an amalgam of ideas, including Buddhist ideas, in efforts to convince its followers to release a mixture of cyanide gas onto a city train, "killing 12 people and injuring thousands".

It doesn't always happen "from the top down", though. Fake Monks in India.

Then, of course, there is always the example of China and Tibet, although I'm not quite sure what the "official stance" on the subject is here on this site, its moderators, and its members in general, so I think it might be best avoided other than a brief mention.

Jikan wrote:
Azidonis wrote:The dharma is free. You can learn from the Buddha without any sort of formal sangha, and then you have no vows to remain quiet about anything.


It is true that it is possible to learn Dharma without any sort of formal sangha, and without a teacher. It is exceptionally difficult to do so. Can you name some persons known to history who have accomplished the path on their own?

For most of us mere mortals, all the supports and guidance we can find are necessary. Hence, relying on the guidance and methods of a capable teacher is advised.


We are all "mere mortals", last time I checked.

That doesn't change the fact that after a point, outside help and guidance takes less precedence to inner guidance in many respects. Ultimately, as long as one perceives the need for guidance, one has not arrived at a freedom from dependency on guidance. In that light, the perception of needing guidance pretty much defeats itself.

Guidance assists one in walking the path, but it cannot help where there is no path.

That said, I do agree that "the guidance and methods of a capable teacher is advised". I would, however, urge anyone seeking a teacher to approach the quest with the utmost caution, forethought, and care.
Azidonis
 
Posts: 99
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:04 am

Re: We can, we cannot, we may, we may not.... arghhh!

Postby lowlydog » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:43 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Who decides who does the shielding?
Spiritual adults.


Is there a certificate or a rite of passage one goes through to be a spiritual adult.

This seems like a power that could easily be abused.
lowlydog
 
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:50 pm

Re: We can, we cannot, we may, we may not.... arghhh!

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:36 am

lowlydog wrote:Is there a certificate or a rite of passage one goes through to be a spiritual adult.
What certificates do your teachers have?
This seems like a power that could easily be abused.
Being spirtiually mature is a power that can be abused??? :shrug:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 10317
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: We can, we cannot, we may, we may not.... arghhh!

Postby lowlydog » Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:56 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
lowlydog wrote:Is there a certificate or a rite of passage one goes through to be a spiritual adult.
What certificates do your teachers have?


No certificates are isued, people need to graduate through the goenka tradition. You need to sit a certain number of 10 day courses before you can sit a longer course, you also need to have maintained precepts and kept up your daily practice for certain periods of time to qualify for courses geared towards old students, you also must give dhamma service to qualify. This may seem unfair but it is a process that allows teachers to familiarise with individual students and ensure they remain on the path and are recieving full benefit from the teachings.

One gradually works there way up to sitting longer courses, by this point one has choosen this method as their practice. I believe that those individuals that reach this level of practice and commitment have a full grasp of the teachings and technique, at this point they may or may not be asked to become assistant teachers, also your personal life situation must be able to accomodate this lifestyle it is very time consuming and requires a huge level of commitment. I'm not sure how one would become an acharia teacher and be authorised to open a centre. I'm not that involved with the internal workings of the goenka centre I attend. My present life situation(young family) limit my ability to get as involved in the centre as I would like. One must remember that becoming an assistant teacher in the goenka tradition is a voluntary activity no payment is issued. You must be able to fully support yourself and teach on top of this. It really takes a truly dedicated individual to do this.

This seems like a power that could easily be abused.
greg wrote:Being spirtiually mature is a power that can be abused??? :shrug:


My statement was aimed at the requirements one must attain to become a teacher in the mahayana tradition, there seems to be a few topics here geared towards the authentisity of some teachers. Can anyone become a teacher or is there a process one must go through? Handed down from one teacher to another. There does not seem to be any questioning in the goenka tradition of authentisity of teachers and we are asked not to teach to others. I personally would not know how to teach this technique properly without the environment of a goenka centre. The minimum period of time to learn the technique is 10 days. It use to be 6 wks but as the pace of life increased some experimentation was done and they shortened the courses to 10 days, they tried to shrink them more but found that people were not getting enough benefit from these shorter courses.
lowlydog
 
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:50 pm

Re: We can, we cannot, we may, we may not.... arghhh!

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:48 pm

lowlydog wrote:No certificates are isued, people need to graduate through the goenka tradition. You need to sit a certain number of 10 day courses before you can sit a longer course, you also need to have maintained precepts and kept up your daily practice for certain periods of time to qualify for courses geared towards old students, you also must give dhamma service to qualify. This may seem unfair but it is a process that allows teachers to familiarise with individual students and ensure they remain on the path and are recieving full benefit from the teachings.
:rolling: If only it were so easy in my mandala!
My statement was aimed at the requirements one must attain to become a teacher in the mahayana tradition, there seems to be a few topics here geared towards the authentisity of some teachers.
Yes, well, people love a good controversy now, don't they?

Imagine a thread like: "Today Lama ... completed her morning practice of water bowl offerings and then sur practice for the dead. Then she had breakfast. She sat down after breakfast and did the full Tara sadhana. Then she read a bit before lunch. After lunch and a short nap she did a session of Shine. Then she fixed a Dharma translation she's working on. She then made tormas and sat down for her protector practice. A light dinner followed by Chenrezig practice and then her yidam practice before going to bed. On going to bed she started her dream yoga before dozing off. Rinse and repeat."

Compare that to: "Dharma fraud high falutin' double whammy tulku bodhisattva bhikkhu ... was caught having sex with a virgin gerbil. Is he really a bhikkhu? Who granted him his credentials? What tailor does he have his costumes made at? Was it skillful means? What colour was the gerbil? etc..."

phpBB [video]
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 10317
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: We can, we cannot, we may, we may not.... arghhh!

Postby lowlydog » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:56 pm

gregkavarnos wrote: If only it were so easy in my mandala!


I don't understand what you mean by this.
lowlydog
 
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:50 pm

Re: We can, we cannot, we may, we may not.... arghhh!

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:14 pm

It means that to qualify as a lama first you have to do a minimum three year and three months and three weeks and three days closed retreat followed by a period of years (as many as the teacher deems necessary) where you are an apprentice to a qualified lama.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 10317
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: We can, we cannot, we may, we may not.... arghhh!

Postby lowlydog » Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:42 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:It means that to qualify as a lama first you have to do a minimum three year and three months and three weeksand three days closed retreat followed by a period of years (as many as the teacher deems necessary) where you are an apprentice to a qualified lama.


I would think that anyone who went through that would with out a doubt be sincere and committed to practice.

Where does all the discrepency come from, are people forgoing the actual practice and saying they did this in a previous life?
lowlydog
 
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:50 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Lounge

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

>