Question about Khenpo Gangshar's vivid awareness
Re: Question about Khenpo Gangshar's vivid awareness
Thanks, everyone, for the guidance. It's becoming clearer intellectually, which will hopefully infuse my practice with clarity.
I had a talk today with the guy (long-time Buddhist, now a student of Lama Surya Das) who recommended Gangshar's vivid awareness to me, and he clarified some key things. He said that it's quite common to feel overwhelmed by impressions when one first starts practicing vivid awareness, and that I should neither pay attention to the impressions nor try to stop them. Rather: Just let them be and focus on the pure awareness behind them. He said the more I do it, the less frenetic it will feel, the more like a continuous stream of awareness.
I had a talk today with the guy (long-time Buddhist, now a student of Lama Surya Das) who recommended Gangshar's vivid awareness to me, and he clarified some key things. He said that it's quite common to feel overwhelmed by impressions when one first starts practicing vivid awareness, and that I should neither pay attention to the impressions nor try to stop them. Rather: Just let them be and focus on the pure awareness behind them. He said the more I do it, the less frenetic it will feel, the more like a continuous stream of awareness.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
Re: Question about Khenpo Gangshar's vivid awareness
Something I should have said first:
The practice is simply to be aware of your thoughts, without trying to change or alter them. But to do the practice, you need to be able to clearly distinguish when you are aware of your thoughts and when you are not and they are simply running on. This is something an absolute beginner cannot do. It took me several years of meditation to catch the difference. If you can't clearly make the distinction, do some easier practice where the distinction between meditating and not meditating is clearer, like watching your breath. Above all, don't just sit there and let your mind wander. That has no benefit at all.
The practice is simply to be aware of your thoughts, without trying to change or alter them. But to do the practice, you need to be able to clearly distinguish when you are aware of your thoughts and when you are not and they are simply running on. This is something an absolute beginner cannot do. It took me several years of meditation to catch the difference. If you can't clearly make the distinction, do some easier practice where the distinction between meditating and not meditating is clearer, like watching your breath. Above all, don't just sit there and let your mind wander. That has no benefit at all.
"It's as plain as the nose on your face!" Dottie Primrose
Re: Question about Khenpo Gangshar's vivid awareness
My friend (who recommended that I check out vivid awareness) advised using the breath as a kind of stabilizer when things get too wild. Not to shift over to anapanasati, rather to let awareness of breath enter gently into vivid awareness and then let it go when things calm down.Jinzang wrote:If it happens that things start getting a little wild, or too intense, that is scattering, and you need to relax and loosen up on noticing your thoughts.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
-
- Posts: 1302
- Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
- Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: Question about Khenpo Gangshar's vivid awareness
No. Don't do anything. Don't notice anything. Don't look for anything. Don't practice anything. Dont try to relax. Just rest.rachmiel wrote:My friend (who recommended that I check out vivid awareness) advised using the breath as a kind of stabilizer when things get too wild. Not to shift over to anapanasati, rather to let awareness of breath enter gently into vivid awareness and then let it go when things calm down.Jinzang wrote:If it happens that things start getting a little wild, or too intense, that is scattering, and you need to relax and loosen up on noticing your thoughts.
Re: Question about Khenpo Gangshar's vivid awareness
As Jinzang advised, it's all about being aware instead of getting lost in thoughts and emotions. Vivid awareness is nothing more than that, so don't try to find any state or feeling that you consider "vivid awareness". Anchoring your attention to a simple object like breath or mantra makes easier to see when you are aware of what is going on and when your are lost in daydreaming. That's why generally the sequence of training is first samatha, then vipasyana, and finally resting (sometimes called the union of samatha and vipasyana).
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Question about Khenpo Gangshar's vivid awareness
When I "just rest" I usually drift off into half (or full) sleep. Even at my peak awake hours. The feeling I have is that brain, having nothing to do or focus on, turns itself off and sleep follows. Surely this can't be a useful "practice" ... nodding off for 20 minutes in the middle of the day?deepbluehum wrote:No. Don't do anything. Don't notice anything. Don't look for anything. Don't practice anything. Dont try to relax. Just rest.
Btw, I'm not new to meditation. I've been doing it off and on for 20 years, both sitting (anapanasati, vipassana) and waking (mindfulness). Throughout this entire time, the moment I "just rest" -- stop trying to do/be anything and just sit there -- I fall into a near sleep (on the cushion) or get lost in thought (mindfulness). I.e., meditative states have never come to me without conscious effort ... unless you count being momentarily struck by the beauty of a landscape a meditative state.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
- Karma Dondrup Tashi
- Posts: 1715
- Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:13 pm
Re: Question about Khenpo Gangshar's vivid awareness
Hehe.deepbluehum wrote:Don't practice anything.
Meditation = "don't meditate".
Pull that off.
It has been the misfortune (not, as these gentlemen think it, the glory) of this age that everything is to be discussed. Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France.
- conebeckham
- Posts: 5718
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
- Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Re: Question about Khenpo Gangshar's vivid awareness
It's completely okay to focus on breath for periods, when one needs stability. Then, when one has calmed sufficiently, let go of the breath as object of focus and "rest" in awareness. This method of practice was taught to me by Very Venerable Mingyur Rinpoche, so I have no doubt that it is appropriate for anyone working with Mahamudra or Dzokchen.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
-
- Posts: 1302
- Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
- Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: Question about Khenpo Gangshar's vivid awareness
Sleeping is ok. Drifting is fine. Getting lost is thought is fine. You get into no particular preference for some "state". No need. It will help if you can go longer than 20 mins so that you can experience how things change.rachmiel wrote:When I "just rest" I usually drift off into half (or full) sleep. Even at my peak awake hours. The feeling I have is that brain, having nothing to do or focus on, turns itself off and sleep follows. Surely this can't be a useful "practice" ... nodding off for 20 minutes in the middle of the day?deepbluehum wrote:No. Don't do anything. Don't notice anything. Don't look for anything. Don't practice anything. Dont try to relax. Just rest.
Btw, I'm not new to meditation. I've been doing it off and on for 20 years, both sitting (anapanasati, vipassana) and waking (mindfulness). Throughout this entire time, the moment I "just rest" -- stop trying to do/be anything and just sit there -- I fall into a near sleep (on the cushion) or get lost in thought (mindfulness). I.e., meditative states have never come to me without conscious effort ... unless you count being momentarily struck by the beauty of a landscape a meditative state.
In my lineage, Drikung Kagyu, the premeditation prayers of aspiration bodhichitta and action bodhichitta are taught to be in cause and effect relationship with Mahamudra which is what I've been describing to you.
You can see here. http://meditationtampa.com/dailyopeningprayers.html
Then dedicate with few Mani mantras. If you do like this, then you have perfect session no matter what happens in rest mode.
Consider the Six Advices of Tilopa
1. Don't think about the past.
2. Don't think about the future.
3. Don't think about the present.
4. Don't analyze.
5. Don't try to make something happen.
6. Just rest in your present state.
From what you are saying, you are imagining some samadhi to experience. Or you are importing Shmatha or Vipashyana and think to apply some technique. According to manifold path like Lankavatara Sutra, the only way to go is no mental projections. That means no idea about having some thought, and no idea about being rid of some thought, including feelings of drowsiness or inner monologues.
Here the fruit is no hope. So there no question of attaining a result or having a realization. This is how you really let go of everything.
Re: Question about Khenpo Gangshar's vivid awareness
I went through a similar period when I adjusted from vipassana to zazen, almost exactly. What I tried was to combine them--- take the technique with me. Then I discovered that the only way to learn from the method is to trust it completely. It was only when I let go of vipassana completely that zazen could begin to teach me new things. However, I also believe a teacher is more necessary for the formless methods since it is so easy to get lost.
rachmiel wrote: When I "just rest" I usually drift off into half (or full) sleep. Even at my peak awake hours. The feeling I have is that brain, having nothing to do or focus on, turns itself off and sleep follows. Surely this can't be a useful "practice" ... nodding off for 20 minutes in the middle of the day?
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
--- Muriel Rukeyser
Re: Question about Khenpo Gangshar's vivid awareness
Do not cling to the snapshots.rachmiel wrote:When practicing vivid awareness as taught by Khenpo Gangshar, if I follow his instruction to stay in the present moment without any trace of past (memory, resonance) or future (anticipation), my sense of continuity drops away and I am left with what feels like a succession of quick "snapshots" ... like a set of fast short edits in a movie: this, this, this, this, this, etc. It feels as if I am directly experiencing annica = constant change.
Normally a sense of deep and steady calmness arises when I meditate. But when I practice vivid awareness, things get kinda wild, and all I can do is hold on and watch as the world flashes by!
I'm a newbie to this technique. Does it sound like I'm "doing it right?" Should calmness arise from vivid awareness? Or the succession of fast discontinuous snapshots I've described?
Thanks for the help.
Re: Question about Khenpo Gangshar's vivid awareness
This is not good advice for 99% of meditators. Most need some focus and prematurely giving the instruction will hinder them. There are plenty of people spouting "the best meditation is no meditation" anc a conceptual view of ultimate reality (not necessarily you, of course.) This is not helpful. Buddhism is a path and we need to repect the fact that people need different instructions at different stages.Sleeping is ok. Drifting is fine. Getting lost is thought is fine.
"It's as plain as the nose on your face!" Dottie Primrose
-
- Posts: 1302
- Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
- Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: Question about Khenpo Gangshar's vivid awareness
Maybe that's how you guys do it. Not us. We say all this focus meditation is the hindrance. Because you training in an expectation. This goes back to Tilopa. No one taught shamatha in Kagyu. The entrance into the mahamudra is aspiration and action bodhichitta. Pure Mahayana dharma. Leave Hinayana aside. Forget ideas of beginners and advanced and progress. When he doses off his body finally is getting rest it needs. When the mind is wandering it is sloughing. This method of rest is the best. Just stay with it through the awkwardness. It really pays off.Jinzang wrote:This is not good advice for 99% of meditators. Most need some focus and prematurely giving the instruction will hinder them. There are plenty of people spouting "the best meditation is no meditation" anc a conceptual view of ultimate reality (not necessarily you, of course.) This is not helpful. Buddhism is a path and we need to repect the fact that people need different instructions at different stages.Sleeping is ok. Drifting is fine. Getting lost is thought is fine.
Re: Question about Khenpo Gangshar's vivid awareness
Is "sloughing" the word you meant? If so, in what sense?deepbluehum wrote:When the mind is wandering it is sloughing.
Re: Question about Khenpo Gangshar's vivid awareness
I'm looking into cloning myself so I can try out each piece of (often contradictory) advice yous guys have given me!
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
- Johnny Dangerous
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 17137
- Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
- Location: Olympia WA
- Contact:
Re: Question about Khenpo Gangshar's vivid awareness
Heh.rachmiel wrote:I'm looking into cloning myself so I can try out each piece of (often contradictory) advice yous guys have given me!
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
-
- Posts: 1302
- Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
- Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: Question about Khenpo Gangshar's vivid awareness
Just like a snake's skin.Azidonis wrote:Is "sloughing" the word you meant? If so, in what sense?deepbluehum wrote:When the mind is wandering it is sloughing.
Re: Question about Khenpo Gangshar's vivid awareness
Check Jewel Ornament of Liberation, chapter 16: The Perfection of Meditative Concentration. Gampopa gives you ample reasons to practise shamatha. It is "Pure Kagyü Dharma".deepbluehum wrote:No one taught shamatha in Kagyu. The entrance into the mahamudra is aspiration and action bodhichitta. Pure Mahayana dharma. Leave Hinayana aside.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
-
- Posts: 1302
- Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
- Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: Question about Khenpo Gangshar's vivid awareness
Mahamudra shamatha is resting in the nature of mind. Not anapanasati. Six paramitas are simultaneous or their not paramitas.Astus wrote:Check Jewel Ornament of Liberation, chapter 16: The Perfection of Meditative Concentration. Gampopa gives you ample reasons to practise shamatha. It is "Pure Kagyü Dharma".deepbluehum wrote:No one taught shamatha in Kagyu. The entrance into the mahamudra is aspiration and action bodhichitta. Pure Mahayana dharma. Leave Hinayana aside.