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deepbluehum wrote:There is a text called the Golden Rosary. It details the history of the Drikung Kagyu.
gregkavarnos wrote:The Lineage of Diamond Light - Crystal Mirror series - Volume V traces a whole bunch of various Nyingma lineages.
Astus wrote:deepbluehum wrote:There is a text called the Golden Rosary. It details the history of the Drikung Kagyu.gregkavarnos wrote:The Lineage of Diamond Light - Crystal Mirror series - Volume V traces a whole bunch of various Nyingma lineages.
Lineage of Diamond Light: "Most of the information is based on traditional texts transmitted by Tarthang Tulku's own teachers."
As for any book with the title "Golden Rosary", I've found none. Books like this or the one recommended by Greg are collections of stories, not studies. Just to give an example: this is a collection of stories, and this is a study.
How do we measure another person's realisation? By his words and actions. That is something observable for us. So how does a lineage actually helps us discerning genuine teachers from fakes?
Masters of Mahamudra by Dowman has both. The Fourteen Dalai Lamas by Mullin. There is one on the Karmapa lineage too which may (also) contain the sort of info you are looking for.
Relieving Cunda's Remorse
56. Then the Blessed One spoke to the Venerable Ananda, saying: "It may come to pass, Ananda, that someone will cause remorse to Cunda the metalworker, saying: 'It is no gain to you, friend Cunda, but a loss, that it was from you the Tathagata took his last alms meal, and then came to his end.' Then, Ananda, the remorse of Cunda should be dispelled after this manner: 'It is a gain to you, friend Cunda, a blessing that the Tathagata took his last alms meal from you, and then came to his end. For, friend, face to face with the Blessed One I have heard and learned: "There are two offerings of food which are of equal fruition, of equal outcome, exceeding in grandeur the fruition and result of any other offerings of food. Which two? The one partaken of by the Tathagata before becoming fully enlightened in unsurpassed, supreme Enlightenment; and the one partaken of by the Tathagata before passing into the state of Nibbana in which no element of clinging remains. By his deed the worthy Cunda has accumulated merit which makes for long life, beauty, well being, glory, heavenly rebirth, and sovereignty."' Thus, Ananda, the remorse of Cunda the metalworker should be dispelled."
57. Then the Blessed One, understanding that matter, breathed forth the solemn utterance:
Who gives, his virtues shall increase;
Who is self-curbed, no hatred bears;
Whoso is skilled in virtue, evil shuns,
And by the rooting out of lust and hate
And all delusion, comes to be at peace.
They are both: historical accounts and religious texts. It's not like the two are mutually exclusive as accounts. Why would the soteriological elements of the accounts concerning Milarepa make his existence as a historical persona any less tangible or real?Astus wrote:If such stories of lineages are not historical accounts but religious texts with the purpose of education it only shows that "lineage" is a matter of faith, a form of doctrine, and not a historical fact or an actual community that requires people to join in order to become teachers. And that's why those who want to keep this doctrine of lineage only need to create their own myths that connects them to a traditional story to legitimise themselves. That is also the reason I say that lineage is an insufficient way to claim authenticity, and the focus should be on the actual teachings someone transmits to others.
gregkavarnos wrote:I think I get your point now. is it that you believe that lineages mean nothing (in terms of the validity of the practices themselves) unless the experiences/outcomes being described can be historically validated by an objective source? Is that what you are trying to say?
If a teaching was invalid would it survive as the basis for a lineage?Astus wrote:Not exactly. I'm saying that lineage itself is not relevant to the validity of the teaching.
The Buddhist teachings currently utilised by Bon have a transmission lineage and the Bon practitioners passing on and utilisin these techniques ar part of the lineage. You do know, for example, that a number of the (historical) lineage holders of Mahamudra belong to Buddhist and Nath lineages?A good example is Bön where they have many Buddhist teachings but no Buddhist lineage.
This is true, it's not always a guarantee. The one thing that lineages do provide though is a framework for the verification of practices (new and old).And even if someone has a traditionally accepted lineage it is no guarantee for correct teachings.
If a teaching was invalid would it survive as the basis for a lineage?
The Buddhist teachings currently utilised by Bon have a transmission lineage and the Bon practitioners passing on and utilisin these techniques ar part of the lineage.
The one thing that lineages do provide though is a framework for the verification of practices (new and old).
Astus wrote: So how does a lineage verifies a practice?
I don't think it does verify a practice. It can help increase the faith and trust of the student in the practice, though. Here it has value.
On the other side, faith and trust in the practice can be harmed when teachers are clearly fabricating a lineage narrative to suit their own agendas, or to prop up their own position.
I said valid. For a stupid and harmful tradition to be maintained it must mean that there is some validity and/or value to it. Maybe not the type of validity and value that you consider intelligent and helpful but...Astus wrote:Of course. Look around, humanity can maintain innumerable stupid and harmful traditions.
Do you think "Buddhists" have a monopoly on some techniques/practices? And I think you will find that Bon practitioners recognise which techniques are/were Buddhist and which were Bon. If a Christian takes, let's say, guru yoga and practices using the figure of Christ as a guru and due to the effectivenes of the technique it is adopted by Christians would this mean that the technique is Christian? Does it mean that the Christian lineage is now broken? Does it mean that the thread of the Buddhist lineage is broken?Since it is obvious that the teachings are taken from Buddhism while they claim to have their own ancient lineage going back to thousands of years, naturally the lineage is a made up myth.
So how did they receive the teachings if the lineage is irrelevant? It fell out of the sky? If the individual thinks that the technique/practice starts and ends with them, then that, my friend, is just egotistical pride. Check out this teaching.If someone doesn't believe in the teachings, the person doesn't believe in the lineage either. If they believe the teachings then it doesn't matter what lineage it is.
Firstly, you misunderstood what I meant. I meant that, well I'll give an example: Let's say I had a sudden flash and insight and vision etc... and happened to be chewing on some grape flavoured chewing gum when it happened. So I consider the chewing gum as the source of my insight and vision and make a practice around the chewing of gum. If I belong to an established lineage, I can take this practice to somebody more qualified and realised than me, within the lineage, and tell them about my amazing practice and experience and then they can verify... If you do not belong to an established lineage...?So how does a lineage verifies a practice?
This is not 100% correct. There are actually some practices (Anapanasati, for example) that work for everybody. And, anyway, Budhism is not psychoanalysis, it's not me, me, me, me... Lojong is a perfect example of this point.Something that worked for others doesn't mean it will work for me or a different group of people.
Karmic proclitivty makes you choose one lineage over another, nothing else. Thankfully, though, some individuals, over the course of history, decided to pass on the techniques so that we now have the privilege of being able to "choose". It was due to their efforts to maintain a lineage of transmission that we now have the benefit of having the practices available.Even in Buddhism, what makes you choose one lineage instead of the other, if what is important is the existence of a lineage?
JKhedrup wrote:Ngondro isn't sexy enough to appeal to the masses, you're right. But neither is the Lam Rim.
I found it very interesting that the Karmapa changed the Monlam liturgy to contain mostly Sutric recitations when in the past it had been heavily tantric. But maybe I'm reading too much into it.
So how did they receive the teachings if the lineage is irrelevant? It fell out of the sky?
If I belong to an established lineage, I can take this practice to somebody more qualified and realised than me, within the lineage, and tell them about my amazing practice and experience and then they can verify... If you do not belong to an established lineage...?
Jikan wrote:Apropos of whether an invented history & lineage are problematic for Dzogchenpas:I also saw lay tantrikas who had acted irresponsibly, old sorcerers, and ordinary people who had pretended to be lamas, inconceivable numbers of them vomiting blood and experiencing unbearable bodily pain. I saw many carnivorous creatures devouring them and many denizens of hell hurling accusations of misdeeds at them.
This is from Delog Dawa Drolma's account of her experiences in the various realms, recorded in English in Delog (p. 82). I assume this text has some authority in this forum and in this thread.
I would like to know if there is any plausible rebuttal to the position that our friends involved in a "vajra romance" with the Aro scene are, in fact, students of ordinary people who are pretending to be lamas, as Dawa Drolma puts it. This is the primary critique against Aro, that it's phony. It's clear to me from this and other sources that if it's phony, then it's a problem. But the problem goes away if David or anyone else can show it's not phony. Well?